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Prazi pelletsoak?


Hinfin

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Hi,

I have recently treated my fish with 2 rounds of prazi at 3,5gr 100% powder per 1000 liters. Salt at 1 gram/liter(0,1%) and fed pellets soaked in garlic water.

Problem: In 1 tank there are still body flukes on some of the fish, tips of scales from a couple of the fish are mottled and a little slime is coming out. Slimecoat scraping examined under a microscope, flukes confirmed but maybe just dead ones not sure. I tried making pictures but didnt get a good picture, ill try again later on.

So i am going to do another round, maybe 2 more. I was thinking about soaking pellets in some prazi, i got something similar to Prazipro aswell since the prazi when suspended might not be absorbed as well into the pellets.

Has anyone done this before? Any suggestions as to howmuch prazi? I was thinking of using the weight of the fishes and use twice what is reccommended for treatment of the water(i can dose those drops containing 2,1mg of prazi per drop). I am hoping the flukes will come out of their hiding when the fish have prazi in their blood and then hit them with a prazi treatment in the tank.

Or just increase prazi to 5gram per 1000l?

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.

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I would do 2 more rounds of the powder and use the dosage recommended by the manufacturer of the product. I don't know if adding Prazi to their food would be of any benefit. I've never read anything supporting this course of action. Also, watch for secondary bacterial infections.

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Ok thank you, the recommended dose for the powder prazi is 3-5 grams per 1000l.

Do you think i should up the salt or just keep monitoring the scalecondition during next treatment and up it if necessary? I'm on daily 50% WC's in between Prazi, any advice there?

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Ok thank you, the recommended dose for the powder prazi is 3-5 grams per 1000l.

Do you think i should up the salt or just keep monitoring the scalecondition during next treatment and up it if necessary? I'm on daily 50% WC's in between Prazi, any advice there?

I would do the 5 grams per 1000l.

As I understand it, you can use the powdered Prazi with salt up to 0.3%. So, I would monitor the scales and raise the salt if you deem it necessary. I think the 50% water changes in between treatments are a good idea :)

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Why would you soak the pellets if the flukes are on the body? Sure, it may be a good treatment method for some internal parasites, but I don't see how it could be good for body flukes, or as good rather, than a bath.

Another thing that is good for ridding flukes, at least in my experience, is to do salt dips on the fish right before a new round. This has been my favorite method ever since I got a fish with a really severe infestation, and hasn't failed me yet in ridding fish of them rather quickly. Making sure to have adequate salt and pristine water, though, are essential if you are stripping the slime coat like this. I usually only have to do dips for the first couple of rounds, and then the fish stop reacting to the prazi.

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Allright, ill try the saltdip on those that clearly have the skinflukes/secondary condition and do the treatment at 5gr/1000l.

With the pelletsoak it was my intention to clear their gut aswell. And/or maybe even try to get to anything that may have gotten under the fish' scales.

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I think eating untreated food while in that water will work enough for the gut. :)

I know I probably don't have to tell you, but be cautious to start your salt dips at the lowest concentration for the fish that are the most effected. Sometimes they can be a little rough on their systems.

Edited by ChelseaM
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I have Microbe-lift Praziquantel. On the container it has these instructions for feeding:

"In Feed: To each 100 grams (3.5 oz) of dry feed (flake, granular, or pelleted) thoroughly mix in 400 mg of Microbe-Lift Praziquantel. Moisten the dry mixture with 25 to 50 ml of grain alcohol for each 100 grams of dry feed. Gently blend the moistened mixture to incorporate the Praziquantel into the feed. (Caution: Grain alcohol is flammable.) Allow the mixture to air dry (do not heat). Break up any clumps and package mixture. Store in a cool, dry place. Feed the medicated feed daily for 5 to 7 days."

There is nothing there about the circumstances under which feeding would be preferable to a bath. It sounds to me like the best way to get to internal parasites.

My first reaction to the problem was the same as Chelsea's -- use salt dips to strip the slime coat to expose the body flukes to a prazi bath.

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Yes, will make sure i dont use too strong saltbath, my ranchu never were able to take a lot of salt anyway and it allways seems highly effective at lower concentrations.

Probably because they digest some of the prazi anyway i was wondering about soaking some pellets for them at a double concentration. At least it seems logical that reoccurring flukes survive in the gut or under the scales. It just keeps puzzling me how some bodyflukes managed to survive, gillflukes seem not as difficult to get rid of and i even did not find any gillflukes on fish this time so maybe i got rid of those with the prazi rounds before summer. Lets hope so!

Also this reaction of the fish at the tip of the scales worries me there might be some that just came back with a vengeance after the 2 previous rounds. Might be small secondary infections from the fluke treatment, hard to say. Not been able to make a picture which shows the problem, ill try a camera with flash tomorrow.

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I have Microbe-lift Praziquantel. On the container it has these instructions for feeding:

"In Feed: To each 100 grams (3.5 oz) of dry feed (flake, granular, or pelleted) thoroughly mix in 400 mg of Microbe-Lift Praziquantel. Moisten the dry mixture with 25 to 50 ml of grain alcohol for each 100 grams of dry feed. Gently blend the moistened mixture to incorporate the Praziquantel into the feed. (Caution: Grain alcohol is flammable.) Allow the mixture to air dry (do not heat). Break up any clumps and package mixture. Store in a cool, dry place. Feed the medicated feed daily for 5 to 7 days."

There is nothing there about the circumstances under which feeding would be preferable to a bath. It sounds to me like the best way to get to internal parasites.

My first reaction to the problem was the same as Chelsea's -- use salt dips to strip the slime coat to expose the body flukes to a prazi bath.

Thank you for this information. At what concentration would you do the prazi bath and for how long? Should i repeat salt/prazi baths daily?

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Here's a paper comparing bath and feeding in perch.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/236044762_Efficacy_of_bath_and_orally_administered_praziquantel_and_fenbendazole_against_Lepidotrema_bidyana_Murray_a_monogenean_parasite_of_silver_perch_Bidyanus_bidyanus_(Mitchell)

The link takes you to the abstract, but just to the right it shows a thumbnail page labeled "Full text." Click on that thumbnail to get the full paper.

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Here's a paper comparing bath and feeding in perch.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/236044762_Efficacy_of_bath_and_orally_administered_praziquantel_and_fenbendazole_against_Lepidotrema_bidyana_Murray_a_monogenean_parasite_of_silver_perch_Bidyanus_bidyanus_(Mitchell)

The link takes you to the abstract, but just to the right it shows a thumbnail page labeled "Full text." Click on that thumbnail to get the full paper.

Thank you for the link, i will go ahead with the saltbaths and another round or two of prazi assuming this will stop reoccurrance of some of the skinflukes.

Interesting to read(p6, discussion) there is a study (Tojo et al 1992) that had 100% results using fenbendazole on Gyrodactylus on trout. I could not find the study online though. Will look into this and report when i find it.

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I know you have done these, but I'm a little confused by your questions so I want to make sure we are using terms the same way. We recommended a salt dip before a prazi bath. A dip refers to a short treatment at a high concentration. Here is a protocol for a salt dip:

"SALT DIP
1. dissolve 30 teaspoons salt/gallon of water (30 grams/Liter, or 113.7g/gallon). This concentration is 3%. Let it match the temp/pH of the tank, and make sure to add de-chlorinator. You can also use tank water, but because you are adding a lot of salt per gallon, you will need to heat up the water. Hence, it's crucial that you cool it back down.
2. prepare a holding tank. This is a tank that is pH/temp matched with the main tank, and has been de-chlorinated. This can be a 5 gallon tub, with bubblestone, or something bigger.
3. make sure you have some sort of timer
4. gently lift the fish out of the tank, and place into temp/pH matched salt solution.
5. start timer.
6. if the fish stays continues to stay upright, or tilts over but can get back up, keep him/her in the salt solution for exactly 5 minutes.
7. remove fish from the salt, and place in holding tank. The reason why we do this is to: 1) give the fish a place to recover by him/herself, and 2)to let the fish purge out ammonia/wastes in a place that is not the main tank.
8. if the fish starts to lose balance and cannot get back before the minutes, remove him/her and place in holding tank, as described in #7.
9. after 1-2 hours, the fish can be moved back to the main tank. He/She might still be disoriented, but should be fine."

A weak fish may require a 2% or even 1% salt dip. The salt dip strips the slime coat, and probably dead parasites with it. This exposes the live external parasites to a full dose of prazi.

Here is dnalex's article on salt baths -- longer treatments with lower doses.

After the fish recovers from the salt dip, you can begin the prazi bath. You don't have to use salt at all with prazi, but can use up to 0.2% if you wish.

I use the instructions on the product label for treating with prazi. If treating in the pond, one just does a large water change and adds the prazi. For repeated treatments, do the same thing again in a week.

If treating in a small hospital tank, I do daily water changes, replacing removed prazi for the first four days, then giving 3 days of plain water.

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Thank you Sharon.

You are right, translating from and to a different language can be confusing. A bath or dip translates into something similar in dutch, it took some time to see how this was different. Thank you for being understanding about this and providing extra information.

So i salt dipped two fish at 1,5% for about 5-7 min. I think this was enough to get the slimecoat off like has been suggested. I didnt see the need for a stronger dip because i am treating with prazi anyway and only need to get to remaining bodyflukes with the prazi. Larger and more fancy varieties(wenhaving or long veil vinnage) seem less tolerant to high salt dips then young and more common varieties if you ask me by the way. I only rarely do saltdips over 2% on Ranchu.

They now have had 2 days of prazi(and 0,1% salt) and the worst of the two seems to reject one or two scales(scales becoming translucent). My photography skills and bad lighting in the fishroom were not enough to get the problem area on photo, will keep trying.

Tomorrow will be day 3 of prazi and i am planning to clean that area on the sickest fish mechanically with a Qtip and a drop of Teatree oil maybe(?). Then a 90% WC maintaining 0,1% salt. Then do 50% WC's untill day 7 for round 2(4) of prazi, maintaining salt.

The rest is doing great, a bit woozy as they allways seem during prazi treatment but very active and eating well.

Suggestions are welcome, do you think the fish worst affected should be quarantined and/or i should treat the damaged area with antibiotic?

Thanks in advance,

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Back after second prazi treatment, actually the fourth treatment.

I managed to get a pic of the fish in question. A bit late, i'm sorry but i had to use additional lighting to get these, and still it is hard to see. From the side you can see some of the scaletips are still sticking out a bit on the upper half of its flank. Also the tail tips have some spots that makes me think there were skinflukes on there aswell(2nd photo). It doesnt seem as bad as when i posted this thread though, the fish seems to be repairing the scales! The scales that seemed to be rejected also have become metallic again but are being repaired by the fish?

I have cleaned the damaged area very carefully after prazi and appied a small drop of teatree oil with a qtip, dont know it that helps but to me it seems the flukes in between or under those scales have been killed and the fish is just repairing the damage by making more mucus in that area.

I am continuing the 1gram/liter salt and WC 50% every other day now. Sorry about the messy algea/diatoms, i'm a overdue with my monthly cleanout!

20140321_2003000.jpg

20140321_2004090.jpg

Your opinions would be much appreciated.

Edited by Hinfin
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Do me a Favor and get a shot of the fish from butt to front... We want to see the scales .See how smooth they are laying and thats the best way...

and if you can closer shots of those white spots :)

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Hi,

I have recently treated my fish with 2 rounds of prazi at 3,5gr 100% powder per 1000 liters. Salt at 1 gram/liter(0,1%) and fed pellets soaked in garlic water.

Problem: In 1 tank there are still body flukes on some of the fish, tips of scales from a couple of the fish are mottled and a little slime is coming out. Slimecoat scraping examined under a microscope, flukes confirmed but maybe just dead ones not sure. I tried making pictures but didnt get a good picture, ill try again later on.

So i am going to do another round, maybe 2 more. I was thinking about soaking pellets in some prazi, i got something similar to Prazipro aswell since the prazi when suspended might not be absorbed as well into the pellets.

Has anyone done this before? Any suggestions as to howmuch prazi? I was thinking of using the weight of the fishes and use twice what is reccommended for treatment of the water(i can dose those drops containing 2,1mg of prazi per drop). I am hoping the flukes will come out of their hiding when the fish have prazi in their blood and then hit them with a prazi treatment in the tank.

Or just increase prazi to 5gram per 1000l?

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.

I'm sorry I didn't follow the entire discussions before hand, but just wanted to say a couple of things, in case they have not been discovered:

1. Ingested praziquantel (or any dewormer for that matter) will not affect the external parasites you want to treat. If you want to treat body flukes, you must treat the water. If you want to get rid of internal worms, feed. :)

2. Although I can't think of cases where there are actual documentation of praziquantel resistance, it's possible. It's also possible that you just need to do a salt dip to strip the slime coat first. Fenbendazole and flubendazole are both equally good and effective alternatives to praziquantel, and can be obtained easily.

Good luck!

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Do me a Favor and get a shot of the fish from butt to front... We want to see the scales .See how smooth they are laying and thats the best way...

and if you can closer shots of those white spots :)

20140324_1610010.jpg

This is the best one out of 200 pics i shot this morning while doing a big WC. Im going back to daily WC's.

I was shocked to see the same problem with two other fish aswell, much less obvious but some slime was protruding from in between the scales. Just random scales, NOT looking like pineconing or bloating. The slime is fairly clear but shows white due to the light reflected in it. Some scales are covered a bit in the slime on the flanks, i thought they would be rejected but they seem to get repaired. Typical is that the scales in question when looking from the side do not have the moon shape at the end but seem a bit corroded in the center leaving a kind of two lobed heart shape.

@Dnalex: Thank you for helping out. I did feed Prazi aswell as treated the water, i fed at 200mg per 100gram of pellets. Ik can imagine this forum does not consider this a standard treatment so i didnt mention i was going to. I was not only thinking about trematodes in their digestive tract but also about directly treating the mouth and gill area. I also treated the water with prazi as usual. It seems i have gotten to more flukes, oddly the symptoms of the scale problem seem to get visible after the treatment has finished, like two days after. This might support the healing/immune response of the fish?

Needless to say i'm very worried, especially about it being of viral nature.

The fish expressing the symtoms first is not getting worse though, none of the fish seem to behave any different, they are eating well.

One more thing that i changed withing the timeframe of the prazi treatments is getting the fish on a different probiotic. Same Bacillus species but different strain. Maybe this can be a reaction to that?

Thanks for the help, im on daily WC 50%+ and 1gram per liter salt(0.1%).

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  • 3 weeks later...
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The fish seem to be healing, i'm allmost sure it was a secondary bacterial issue(nothing found under microscope), next time ill be more carefull during prazi treatments. I think it could also be an oversensitivity to the salt. Anyway, i have brought down the saltlevel and keep them on clay to recover for now. Hope all will be ok soon, i was worried sick..... :ill

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