Urgent Help Needed- Oranda Mystery Illness

[Queens4Fish]

Thanks all

I will treat for Flukes.

The video isn't great and there is a better one of them in full health- please do put mute on , my comments annoy ME lol.

It went from this to what you see in last night's video hence my confusion.

I have two 200 internal aqua filters in there plus an air stone.

The basketed anubia is new, attempt to put some more 02 in, will take out, although there is no cotton or anything other than small pbbles in that basket...

As some mods have already suggested on kokos I find the water changes keep my fish happier and healthier and take away the need to use waste removal products.

Yes, gill damage with cleo is biggest concern.

Will upgrade to a larger filter and invest in a bigger air pump and stone as advised. as well as treat for flukes with Prazi and salt.

Thanks so much you guys, will keep you posted.

Qxx

[Mikey]

Welcome!

I was thinking about lack of airation aswell, but i see an airstone in the vid (temp shut off i suppose). The spots look like secondary fungal issues. So prime suspect is overall waning waterquality.

Oxygen deprevation can occur due to a number of reasons, but symptoms are not only panting at the surface, often fish weaken so fast they cant keep up especially when the surface is agitated by the filters.

I would uncover the tank and airate plenty, put some salt in @1gram/liter(or 1 level teaspoon per gallon), WC largely 75%+ daily and after a few days treat for (gill)flukes with prazi. In between flukes treatments WC heavily again. If you are still WCing with buckets, try and find a small pondpump and garden hose. Many posted info on how to ease WC's here. I would take out the plants and ornamental rocks during treatment.

My main consearn is for the Oranda, she might allready have suffered some gill damage, but only after prazi etc one can see how much damage it is.

Hello. I know you want to help, but please don't suggest treatments since you are not a mod nor a senior member. Thank you

[Hinfin]

Oh, sry, i wasn't aware of that......

[jmetzger72]

I like the set up in the second video a lot. The 2 filters are agitating the water surface as is the airstone. The rocks and plants also look lovely and clean. Motherredcap suggested the vinegar test because some rocks can leach harmful minerals into the water.

We will be happy to help you with the Prazi schedule as Flukes are tough to eliminate and must be treated multiple times at appropriate intervals. You may also need antibiotics if the flukes have caused a secondary bacterial infection to set in. This is often indicated by bottom sitting behavior.

PRAZIQUANTEL PROTOCOLS

A. FIVE DAY ROUNDS
Day 1: Big WC (>50%), add Prazi. Make sure salt is at the appropriate concentration. This is the beginning of Round 1.
Day 5: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 1.
Day 6: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 2.
Day 10: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 2.
Day 11: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 3.
Day 15: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 3.
Day 16: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 4.
Day 20: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 4.
Day 21: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 5.
Day 25: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 5.
Day 26: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 6.
Day 30: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 6.

This is enough for 6 rounds, should you need to go out that far.
Some reminders: Prazipro should only have salt to 0.1% if you are using regular dose. If double dosing Prazipro, you can raise salt to 0.3%. If you are using Prazi powder or tablets, then salt is at 0.3%.

A. SEVEN DAY ROUNDS
Day 1: Big WC (>50%), add Prazi. Make sure salt is at the appropriate concentration. This is the beginning of Round 1.
Day 2: Add another dose of Prazi. We routinely double dose with Prazi for the first round in this protocol.
Day 5: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 1.
Day 8: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 2.
Day 12: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 2.
Day 15: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 3.
Day 19: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 3.
Day 22: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 4.
Day 26: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 4.
Day 29: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 5.
Day 33: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 5.
Day 36: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 6.
Day 40: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 6.

[Queens4Fish]

1)Fluke Solve (Praziquantel)

2)Octozin (dimetridazole)

3)Kanaplex (Kanamycin) - best choice

Triple Sulpha - 2nd best

Erythromycin - last choice

Thanks so much, especially for that schedule you guys are like a gold-fish god send!!!!!

Video/First Set-up- That is the tank a. in daylight b. with active fish and no meds in water.

Right, just so I understand:

Prazi = fluke treatement

Octozin= Internal bacteria

What about Kanaplex?- What does that do?

And it's safe to put all this in the tank in one go?

Qxx

[fantailfan1]

metronidazole (Octozin) is an antibiotic with some anti parasitic properites. It covers Gram + bacteria. Kanaplex is also an antibiotic but it covers G- bacteria so between the 2 of them, you should be covered for most of what would affect your fish.

Yes, you can use them all at once. However please do so under the guidance of a mod so that you do the WCs/dose meds properly.

Jared, are you thinking of starting with prazi and salt and using the metro and kana if needed or do all 3 from the start?

[jmetzger72]

metronidazole (Octozin) is an antibiotic with some anti parasitic properites. It covers Gram + bacteria. Kanaplex is also an antibiotic but it covers G- bacteria so between the 2 of them, you should be covered for most of what would affect your fish.

Yes, you can use them all at once. However please do so under the guidance of a mod so that you do the WCs/dose meds properly.

Jared, are you thinking of starting with prazi and salt and using the metro and kana if needed or do all 3 from the start?

Yes, exactly

I like Kana with Metro better than Erythromycin for the reason Lisa mentioned. Erythromycin is more for gram + bacteria like strep and staph.

I would do Prazi + salt + Metro and see if the Oranda improves. Get the ammonia down to 0 as well. If she continues to bottom sit after a few days of that, then I would start the Kana.

[Queens4Fish]

Thank-you...

She is almost completely on her side, I am very worried, the meds have arrived and need to collect them at the post office.

I hate week ends right now especially when I'm pulling a 10 h r shift, friend going to pick up the meds for me.

I am very scared I will just loose her at this point as she is looking very bad.

Is there anything I can do to help her be more comfortable or stop her from dying...?

Q*xx

[jmetzger72]

Which of the meds were you able to get?

[Queens4Fish]

fluke solve and metro/Octozin

[jmetzger72]

fluke solve and metro/Octozin

Okay, then I would do a big water change, add aquarium salt at 1 Teaspoon per gallon (pre-dissolved) and then dose both the Fluke solve and the Metro.

[Queens4Fish]

Hi again

It says on the box that octozin shouldn't be used with/at the same time as any other medication?!

Edited October 5, 2014 by Queens4Fish

[fantailfan1]

We've used metro and prazi together on probably hundreds of occasions . . . .

[Queens4Fish]

Okay...

I'm sorry you can understand why I am double checking when I am so attached to my babies!

I could only get the tablet form, is it better for me to crush it up?

xx

[fantailfan1]

No problem!! Double check all you'd like!

Yes, you'll need to crush it.

[Queens4Fish]

Fantastic thank-you!

The instructions are quite confusing, it says use on days 1, 2 and 3, so does this mean I crush up that quantity of pills every day for 3 days!

Gosh that is a lot!

Edited October 5, 2014 by Queens4Fish

[jmetzger72]

Can you post the mg of metronidazole in each tablet?

[Queens4Fish]

Hi Teletubby,

It says: .085 per gram and it says 1 tablet treats 22.5 L

I double checked my aquarium capacity the guy that sold it to me sid it was 128L but if I calculate it by the LxWxB formula it's only 100.

You can guess how pleased I feel right now.

So I crushed up 4.5 tablets and placed them in, according to this 'Use on day 1, 2 and 3' this is what I should do today and tomorrow?!

I have dosed Metro, prazi and salt.

Also

My oranda is now completely on her side and cannot keep upright although her panting seems to have calmed down a bit.

My Ryu is now bottom sitting and looking very depressed.

A very dramatic change.

This is awful. I'm feeling so upset and powerless.

[Queens4Fish]

You guys, please can someone respond, I am seriously wondering whether I should be considering euthanasing Cleo.

I know it's my choice.

I just wanted to hear what you think, i.e should I be considering it?

She is lying there, unmoving but breathing and yes alert, eyes open and responsive.

Amidala is by her side and seems to be 'minding' her...https://www.dropbox.com/s/b1iqfc4dhv5wdw4/2014-10-06%2015.30.48.jpg?dl=0

If I grab her attention she will try and swim completely on her side, weighed down completely to the bottom but can manage for a few seconds to swim vivaciously on her side to show me she is still in there.

Please let me know what you think+ post above about amidala who is now worsening.

Thanks.

xx

[jmetzger72]

You really just have to give the meds a chance to work. Keep the water parameters as good as possible. It can take several days for them to work. I would follow the directions on the Octozin. I have not used that particular product before. However, I would continue it for longer than 3 doses. We usually recommend a minimum of 7-10 days. You can also dose the Kanaplex tomorrow if you feel like things are getting worse. Prazi can make fish pout during the first couple of rounds.

[Queens4Fish]

You really just have to give the meds a chance to work. Keep the water parameters as good as possible. It can take several days for them to work. I would follow the directions on the Octozin. I have not used that particular product before. However, I would continue it for longer than 3 doses. We usually recommend a minimum of 7-10 days. You can also dose the Kanaplex tomorrow if you feel like things are getting worse. Prazi can make fish pout during the first couple of rounds.

That's sort of what I mean, how long do I give it to work in view of the worsening? 2 /3 rounds, A couple of weeks?

It would be great if someone in the UK or US who has used Octozin could respond.

Could you also tell me if my post has been moved from the main forum since it doesn't seem to be under any particular heading anymore?...

Thanks

[koko]

You really just have to give the meds a chance to work. Keep the water parameters as good as possible. It can take several days for them to work. I would follow the directions on the Octozin. I have not used that particular product before. However, I would continue it for longer than 3 doses. We usually recommend a minimum of 7-10 days. You can also dose the Kanaplex tomorrow if you feel like things are getting worse. Prazi can make fish pout during the first couple of rounds.

That's sort of what I mean, how long do I give it to work in view of the worsening? 2 /3 rounds, A couple of weeks?

It would be great if someone in the UK or US who has used Octozin could respond.

Could you also tell me if my post has been moved from the main forum since it doesn't seem to be under any particular heading anymore?...

Thanks

your thread is in the D&D section since this is where we talk about sick fish

[motherredcap]

Queens, I understand you are frustrated. Everyone who has experience and/or is interested in fish medicine on this forum reads D&D, so your in the right place. I won't lie. It looks bad for your lovely oranda, but the fight isn't over yet. As a general rule, you should see signs of improvement.

Keep the meds in, keep the tank clean and aerated and hope for the best.

[JustRachel]

My fish was stuck belly up and on the bottom at different times for about 2 weeks. I didn't think he would make it but 4 days into Metro he was swimming and looked like a completely different fish. I really hope they feel better soon and don't ever lose hope

[Queens4Fish]

Hi Guys

Thanks for your support and encouragement!

Need some advice please- this is day 4 on Octozin treatment.

The instructions say:

'use on day 1,2,3- Octozin is slow to bio-degrade so you may perform a 50 percent water change on day 8, use for up to 24 weeks.' https://www.dropbox.com/sc/epvdg05eya7667v/AABvaE0XsIDTIkCoO7HS94Kia

So technically does that mean no octozin days 4,5,6,7, then change the water and start the week cycle again?

And how long to carry on with the octozin? Because in view of this- the 7-10 days advice given previously does not add up, unless you mean i should carry on for 2/3 weeks?

Kanaplex- on it's way-I understand the +/- gram explanation but are you sure it's not overdoing it/saturating them with meds to carry on prazi, oxi and kana simultaneously?

I will go with what you say if you think it will speed up recovery, just don't want it all to have the adverse effect you know?

The good news is that the Ryu is beginning to perk up, which can hopefully take as an indication that something is going right

Although she has large bloody patches on her bottom fins from having been on the bottom so much.

I am now having to hand feed Cleo though as she can't right herself at all. things don't look good for her but... we shall see I guess.

I really hope this is finally the right treatment, it feels like I have thrown a whole pharmacy at them these past months...

p.s can you tell these smileys are keeping me going here much...lol

p.p.s if anyone has used this form of octozin before or you know someone who has can you point them in this direction, pwetty please-?

Ta

Qxx

Edited October 8, 2014 by Queens4Fish