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Urgent Help Needed- Oranda Mystery Illness


Queens4Fish

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Dear Lovely People at Koko's,

I am in desperate need of your help.

128 L

2 Aqua Internal 200's

1 Ryukin Amidala

1 Oranda Cleo

No ammonia

Ph Levels (both) normal

Nitrates and Nitrites

Water clear

API testing kit

As you can see from the names Amidala and Cleo, they are both named after queens, hence my user name :)...

My Oranda is very very sick.

This has been going on , on and off for a very long time, 5 months at least.

Her current symptoms are:

Bottom sitting, Panting, lethargicness, weightloss, whirling, large white spots that sometimes appear frayed.

She can swim but it takes a lot of effort and she returns to the bottom panting 90 percent of the time.

The only symptoms my Ryu has displayed have been the white spots on her dorsal fin and these have dissapeared after the use of Pimafix but she is stressed and darting. Swiming fine but looking a bit red and has dulled her colours.

On the advice of many pet stores and internet research I have treated as follows/for:

  • Ich: Given hydrogen peroxide baths and done huge water changes plus salt, and treat ich naturally if it were present. (The spots only faded for a while so...)
  • Anti white spot: Interpret, temporary improvement followed by worsening (the spots are large not salt like so next pet store reccommended Mela fix for fungal)
  • Fungal Infections: Mela fix, temporary improvement.
  • Bacterial Infections: Pimafix. temporary improvement.
  • I have fed peas just to eliminate gut problems and improve buoyancy,

Bear in mind this has been across 5 months...It seems such a mess. It all seems to help but not resolve; which leads me to believe there are different things going on here, which is why I am deathly confused :/

I have also done:

25, 50 and 80 percent water changes as the forum advises for Fancies.

I am at my wits end and very scared I will loose my fish, they look unhappy and tired and I realise that the variety of different treatments are stressing them out but truly have no clue what to do next.

I am sad you guys, I'm not one of those owners that isn't careful and they used to be so happy.

I really don't know what to do , please could you help as soon as your lives will allow.

If I've missed out anything you need, or I need to pay you, don't shout at me.... just please let me know.

Pictures here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vof7di1vm1h8flc/2014-09-29%2022.31.33.jpg?dl=0 Cleo on bottom

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtyyb2fa05x5lbb/cleo%27s%20tail%202.png?dl=0 White spots

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cvqdslk3p7b3j6o/Les%20Poissons.png?dl=0 The Queens in full health.

Queens* xx

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Hi Queens. :hi

I know all too well that sinking feeling. :hug

It really will help if you can fill out this check list.

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrate level(Tap)
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:

  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
  • * Water temperature?
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
  • * How often do you change the water and how much?
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

I know it seems quite long but it will help our moderators to determine what course of action is best for you and your fish. :) The results for each test, for both tap and tank water, are needed to make sure that the water quality in the tank is good, and also to know whether large water changes are safe.

Also if you can explain the dosage and duration of each medication that you used, that will be helpful too.

Best of luck with them! :hug

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Welcome :hi

Your fish really are gorgeous. I'm sure the mods will be along soon to give some advice.

If you fill out the form in the mean time that will help them out a lot :)

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:hi

Like Fantailfan1 said, we need actual numbers for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate. KH would also be helpful. Getting water parameters tested and then corrected (if necessary) is the first step in all successful treatments :)

Is your API test kit the drops or the strips?

Have you ever treated for Flukes with Prazi (Praziquantel)?

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Hello All,


Thanks for being lovely and for the kindnesses; I am touched :thanks and I'm sure the girls are proud to be called beautiful too, especially whilst they are feeling so poorley!



Of course, Info as requested:



Other Required Info:



  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API MASTERKIT




  • * Water temperature? 24C/room temp (no heater)




  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?


    128L/1,5 years- upgraded from 75L after a year with same filter media.




  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? AQUA INTERNAL 200 x2




  • * How often do you change the water and how much? Twice a week, 50/80 percent as needed.




  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?


    5 days ago 80 percent,




  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 7 inch ( including tail) , 1 Ryu, 1 Oranda.




  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?


    Tetra Water Safe,Evolution aqua PURE balls in the filter.


    I NO LONGER USE Waste Remover.




  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Tetra goldfish, gold japan, 2 small pinches every 2/3 days, shelled peas one or twice a week or 1 pinch novo prawns and peas.




  • * Any new fish added to the tank? NO Medical History




  • * Any medications added to the tank?YES!




  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.




  • Cotton wool- Lovefish, followed packet dosage 1 month after buying them, 2 weeks treatment,




  • Salt, Hydrogen peroxide, and peas 1 week.




  • Pima fix- to treat in case symptoms were bacterial- 1 week




  • Itch-interpret treatment folllowed instructions on box, 1 course, 7 day break, another course.




  • Mela fix- to treat because next shop says spots are too big to be itch- its fungal they said... ( still treating, course of 7 days finishes in 2 days.




  • Used to put salt in weekly, stopped putting salt in when this medication buisness started as figured it would stress them out too much. Symptoms




  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?


    Tails becoming increasingly red veined despite no ammonia readings in water.


    With Amidala this is tough to tell because she has had them as long as I have had her because of her colouring, but with Cleo it's a recent development.




  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?


    Cleo: Bottom sitting, Panting lethargicness, weightloss, whirling, large white spots that sometimes appear frayed.


    Amidala: darting, beginning to dull her colours, developping a white coating on her nose.



It is worth noting that I had a couple of clams that died half way through this process, I think they really messed the tank up, I had to re-cycle and during that period was advised to use 'quick start', despite being on old filter media.


Since it is now fully cycled I stopped using that, as I am not a fan of too much stuff in the tank.



Thanks in advance,


Queens* xx

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I'm sorry they aren't feeling well :hug

Have you ever treated for flukes? This is what it sounds like to me. Would you be able to get a video of their symptoms and also some pictures of their fins please?

Edited by Mikey
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Thanks for being so prompt.

No for Prazi and flukes treatments.

API Drops Master Kit.

Agreed re spots which is why I think the second fish shop told me to forget about ich and use pimafix... :hummm

Ok, it's late and the tank is not spotless, ( I'm a proud mama it drives me mad to see the tank marked in any way but during meds..pfff.) but here is a little vid as requested. http://youtu.be/-D9qF4cOTNg

Right, so apologies to add to the pot, but something else occurred to me which makes very very cross...

The rocks you see in there are from the river, Once my tank was re-cycled again- post clam disaster- I bleached them(baby safe bleach), boiled them and dechlorinated them and put them in, is there any chance it could be them messing it all up?

The fish seemed to love them, too.

So confused. :bye2:

Qx

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To my eyes I see fluke symptoms and a possible bacterial infection. But a mod will be by to confirm soon.

What a gorgeous Oranda and Ryukin :heart

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I would definitely treat for flukes with prazi and salt. I would also look for powdered metronidazole and some other antibiotic. I know they are difficult to come by in the UK. For prazi, look for Fluke Solve and I believe metro can be purchased as Octozin. I'm not sure about another antibiotic but you'd want erythromycin, kanamycin,OR trisulfa if you can get them.

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I would definitely treat for flukes with prazi and salt. I would also look for powdered metronidazole and some other antibiotic. I know they are difficult to come by in the UK. For prazi, look for Fluke Solve and I believe metro can be purchased as Octozin. I'm not sure about another antibiotic but you'd want erythromycin, kanamycin,OR trisulfa if you can get them.

I agree with Lisa:

1)Fluke Solve (Praziquantel)

2)Octozin (dimetridazole)

3)Kanaplex (Kanamycin) - best choice

Triple Sulpha - 2nd best

Erythromycin - last choice

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How much is the surface of the water moving around by the filter? Have you considered using an air pump? It could be a lack of oxygen keeping the fish at the bottom.

I think two water changes a week are a bit much, as it can stress the fish - and stressed fish are much more inclined to get sick. And I say this without knowing how you change your water.

Also, with 125l you are just at the limit of the tank - but with that large and beautiful fish I would consider upgrading to a larger tank and the filter (greatly!) - this will also help you to not do twice a week water changes.

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If oxygen is too low, you will generally see Goldfish piping at the surface rather than sitting on the bottom. I see an airstone...is it normally running?

Many of us, here, do a large water change twice a week without removing the fish and they seem to thrive. But, I agree that a larger tank and filter can solve a lot of problems :)

I think it is more likely that you have a parasitic issue such as Flukes (and possibly a secondary bacterial infection) and the "correct" treatment has not yet been administered.

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Your fish are beautiful and I can see why you are concerned.

In addition to the medical advice given by the mods, I would take everything except one filter out of the tank (for the time being). Check the rocks with vinegar to see if they react. Take the anubias out of those planters ( the fluff from the planter basket can also be problematic) and replace one of the internal filters with a HOB, hang-on-back filter. FBG is right, the tank seems very still and a HOB will help aerate the tank, get some of the waste out of the tank and free up some room.

This will give you a clean environment within which to treat the fish. After they have recovered, you can slowly add the decor, making sure they don't react. Good Luck!

Edited by motherredcap
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Your fish are beautiful and I can see why you are concerned.

In addition to the medical advice given by the mods, I would take everything except one filter out of the tank (for the time being). Check the rocks with vinegar to see if they react. Take the anubias out of those planters ( the fluff from the planter basket can also be problematic) and replace one of the internal filters with a HOB, hang-on-back filter. FBG is right, the tank seems very still and a HOB will help aerate the tank, get some of the waste out of the tank and free up some room.

This will give you a clean environment within which to treat the fish. After they have recovered, you can slowly add the decor, making sure they don't react. Good Luck!

I agree that an HOB would probably be better :)

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Welcome!

I was thinking about lack of airation aswell, but i see an airstone in the vid (temp shut off i suppose). The spots look like secondary fungal issues. So prime suspect is overall waning waterquality.

Oxygen deprevation can occur due to a number of reasons, but symptoms are not only panting at the surface, often fish weaken so fast they cant keep up especially when the surface is agitated by the filters.

I would uncover the tank and airate plenty, put some salt in @1gram/liter(or 1 level teaspoon per gallon), WC largely 75%+ daily and after a few days treat for (gill)flukes with prazi. In between flukes treatments WC heavily again. If you are still WCing with buckets, try and find a small pondpump and garden hose. Many posted info on how to ease WC's here. I would take out the plants and ornamental rocks during treatment.

My main consearn is for the Oranda, she might allready have suffered some gill damage, but only after prazi etc one can see how much damage it is.

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Just wanted to add good HOBs are hard to get hold of in the UK but I used to have an All Pond Solutions HOB which I liked. Some say they're noisy, though.

I have plenty of Erythromycin (I think), Octozin that I don't need and might get my powder metro order soon if the OP would like any. :)

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As well as Fluke Solve, there is another treatment called Kusuri Wormer Plus (the reason I mention this is because I believe dnalex once mentioned that it was less harsh on the fish than Fluke Solve). Of course if anyone would like to dispute that go right ahead, I have used both and neither had any negative effects on my fish, though they weren't heavily infested at the time of using Fluke Solve :)

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