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Help/Advice for 2 poorly goldfish


DawnyBee

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· * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0

· * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0

· * Nitrate level(Tank) 40 (just before water change)

· * Ammonia Level(Tap) Can check when I get home

· * Nitrite Level(Tap) Can check when I get home

· * Nitrate level(Tap) Can check when I get home

· * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.2 (concerning?)

· * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4

· Other Required Info:

· * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API - Drops

· * Water temperature? 23

· * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 160 litres – think that is 35 gallons (imperial) Running for 3 years.

· * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 405

· * How often do you change the water and how much? Every 1-2 weeks. Trying to do it strictly weekly since they started to look poorly. 50% changed

· * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday – changed 50%

· * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 Goldfish, about 10 cms bodies but with long fins

· * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime

· * What do you feed your fish and how often? New Life Spectrum pellets for goldfish

· * Any new fish added to the tank? No

· * Any medications added to the tank? Salt at 0.1%

· * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Interpet internal bacteria treatment, cant remember how long ago exactly, over a year ago. They had stringy poo.

· * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Details and photos below

· * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Seem a bit listless. They are bottom sitting more than usual but get up and swim about intermittently.

Hi there,

I’m new to this forum, pleased to meet you all!

My fish have been doing great for the past few years so I haven’t been on forums for advice much recently, however the time has come to ask for help as I’m completely stumped as to what is wrong with my two finned babies.

I have one black moor and one who looks like a mixture of fantail, ryukin and oranda? He has lovely flowing fins, a really high arched back and just recently he’s started to develop a wen! He’s quite a little stunner! Anyway, I digress!

The moor has always been fine, no problems with her until recently when I noticed she had developed popeye. I thought she may have bumped it as the water parameters are good, it was only one eye that was affected - and they are rather large eyes! Since then a sort of fleshy or liquid filled sack has developed under her eye which seems to be getting bigger and bigger. The eye doesn’t seem to be getting bigger (although it is noticeably larger than the other one) but the sack is definitely getting bigger and almost seems like gravity is stretching it downwards (not sure how that works in water, but that’s what it looks like)

She seems fine in herself, is eating fine and swimming around. She has always been partial to a snooze so seeing her bottom sitting for a couple of minutes now and then isn’t unusual but she seems to be doing a bit more of it. She is 3 years old. Here are some photos, the reflections are a bit bad, I hope you can see the sack under her eye I’m referring to.

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/photo5.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/photo1.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=2

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/photo2.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=3

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/photo3.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=4

The other little guy doesn’t have popeye, but he has red spots on his body and in his fins. He has very fair fins so some red lines have always been visible – I don’t think they were streaks so much as just being able to see his veins. Keeping the water clean kept these at bay. Recently however he has developed one or two bright red marks on his body, as well as red marks on his dorsal and tail fins. They don’t look like streaks in so much as they don’t ‘streak’ down the length of the fin – they are small concentrated patches of red. The ones on his body seem to be the size of a scale each, there aren’t many – maybe 3 max. They go away and then they come back. The weird thing is they are only on the left hand side of his body! The right hand side is fine. It bothers him as I see him rubbing and flashing on the bottom of the tank now and then always just on his left hand side. I did wonder if he had burnt himself on the heater? He likes to sleep right next to it. But it seems odd to me that he would do that over and over? I’ve moved the heater to a different position to see what happens, but he is also down in the dumps, bottom sitting and just generally looking miserable so not sure if there is something more going on here. He is eating fine, gets excited for food. His face, wen and whole right hand side is fine – it’s just the red streaks on his left hand side and his general demeanour that are worrying me. Sorry for the rubbish blurry photo, the one time I want him to bottom sit and he wouldn’t! I can try to get a better photo tonight. He is also 3 years old.

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/photo4.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

Could you please let me know what you think and let me know any information I have missed that may be helpful?

I’m stumped as they both have such different symptoms.

Any advice appreciated, I love them both so much and its breaking my heart to see them like this.

Thank you,

Dawn

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Forgive me if I just didn't see, but how long has the salt been at 0.1%?

What medications do you have available in your area?

I have a feeling that the issues are all related, but a mod will have to confirm.

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Welcome to Kokos! :)

I'm sorry that your fish aren't feeling so well, but hopefully, we'll be able to get them on the right track. I see that you wrote about their bottom sitting--how is their appetite, and what medications do you have access to?

Don't start any meds until you hear from a forum moderator. Hopefully someone more familiar with UK med availability will be able to chime in, as I'm, unfortunately, wholly unfamiliar.

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Hi guys,

The salt has been at 0.1% for a week, did a 50% water change yesterday and added back in what I took out.

I have access to whatever meds are in the LFS :)

I think in the UK meds are a bit more restricted than the US so will probably have difficultly getting hold of some things, but if someone lets me know what I need to get Ill do my best to get it.

I haven't added any meds so far, only salt, as I dont know what Im dealing with and dont want to do more harm than good.

The bottom sitting is only slightly more than usual, almost as if they are just down in the dumps. If I go over to the tank they get up and start swimming around fine. Their appetite is the same as usual - get very excited for the pellets and spend ages rooting around for them. I gave them some peas as a treat the other day as I felt sorry for them and they ate them happily. I also clipped some boiled and cooled baby spinach leaves in for them last week and they ate every last bit.

I look forward to hearing what a mod thinks :)

Thanks for replying!

Dawn

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Of course, I will get a photo of it tonight and post first thing in the morning.

I did try to buy 'rounded' ornaments so avoid such situations, but thinking about it some of the plants are rather vicious looking - I might have to get rid of some of them if they prove to have been the culprits.

:madrant

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Hi Koko,

Sorry - I only just saw your last message as we are in different time zones :no:

Ill test the KH and PH as requested tonight and post the results. I tried to post these photos last night from my phone but had no luck, Ill try to post the KH and PH from my phone but if that isnt successful Ill have to do it tomorrow from my work computer. Really need to get a new home laptop!

Anyway - here is the post I tried to log last night:

Hello,

Here are the full tank shots as promised as well as some better shots of the fish. I don't have a light on in the tank as they don't really like it but I popped it on quickly so you can see better what I've been talking about.

Tank

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-6.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=2

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-7.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

Fish with red patches and spots (Norman)

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-1.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=8

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=9

Fish with Popeye and strange sack like growth (Squeesh) There seem to be 2 small clear spots/blister type things on the lump now, just at the bottom of it:

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-2.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=7

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-3.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=6

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-4.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=5

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-5.jpg.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=4

Some video of them as they are behaving right now: http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/trimF11D7067-E2F8-425E-9E08-0E59D34ADAC5.mp4.html?filters[user]=121152400&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=3

Norman seems to be having a few floaty issues, he rests head down, butt up a bit. He's always been that rotund, he has a big old belly, but he's never had floaty issues before, he's been the picture of health.

I hope this is of some help?

Please let me know your thoughts when you've had time to review the photos.

Many thanks!!

Dawn

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OK the first thing I notice about your tank is the hollow ornaments. Those can cause a back up of bacteria in the tank. So I would like you to do is take them out and do a 50% right after wards and another one after wards....http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/page/index.html/_/water-quality-articles/hollow-ornaments-r309

Also you got a great filter problem is it only pumps out "Pump Output: 340gph " and your tank is 42 us gallons so just under.. :( we will need another filter hun :(

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Oh no, really?! A new filter?

I got this one because it was supposed to handle my tank size.

The website says its good up to 400litres and does 1300gph?

http://123aquatics.co.uk/products/aquarium/filtration/external/405-external-aquarium-filter-101.aspx

"The Fluval 405 External Canister Filter provides complete, multi-stage filtration for aquariums up to 400 Liters (25 U.S. gallons).

1300 LPH for aquariums up to 400 litres"

I'm not wanting to be rude or to question your knowledge and I'm keen to do whatever it takes to get them healthy again (which includes buying a new filter if necessary) but I just wanted to double check you were referring to the correct filter I have as its a pretty big expense if I need to get a new one.

With regards to the ornaments, I'm completely on board with that, I will get them out of the tank as soon as I get home tonight and look for something solid to take their place. So 50% water change straight after and then another 50% when? Straight after that? Or in a couple of days?

So its looking like bacterial infection? Should removing the ornaments and getting a new filter if required be all I need to do, or would you recommend a course of medication?

Poor Squeesh's eye sack/growth looks like its going to pop at some point, if it did should I do a water change and add salt? Or should I do anything else?

Ill get onto the KH and PH tonight too, Im not forgetting about that :thumbup2:

Thanks for all your advice so far, it is greatly appreciated,

Dawn

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From my calculations, your tank is about 42 US gallons and your filter pumps about 340 gallons per hour which is about 8X filtration. For a canister filter we recommend between 5-7X filtration so that should be OK.

What is your filter maintenance routine? When was the last time you cleaned it out? (Not scrubbed it but rinsed the media?)

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Phew, so maybe no need for a new filter?

I clean it out about once a month, sometimes every 2 months if I've been busy.

I take it apart and rinse the media and insides with tank water from the water change.

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thats a good thing tanking out the ornaments.

I will discuss with the mods the right meds :)

Me Even when I had the canisters I always had a HOB filter. I always like to keep my water filters at 10x.. Plus if a filter goes out you have another as back up. :twocents:

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Hi Koko,

I've actually got a spare HOB which came with the tank, but I wanted to use an external as I felt it would be more powerful for the volume of water.

I'll dig it out and set it up so I have both running and see if that, coupled with removing the ornaments and doing some extra water changes makes them feel better.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on meds :) Just hope I can get them in the UK!

Thanks again for your help and advice everyone, at least I can make a start on improving things and not feel quite as helpless as I have recently!

:thumb:

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Hello and nice to meet you. :) I'm sorry it's under these circumstances for having sick fish. :( I hope your fish start to feeling and looking good soon. They are both beautiful.

When we (my daughter and I) first started keeping fish about 27 months ago we had hollow ornaments also that we needed to remove for the health of our fish. I thought it was going to be a big deal for my daughter but it wasn't. It actually felt good to take them out after it was explained why we should. I used to have a plant similar to what you have (the small pointy one with the ends) but took it out for fear of a fish poking his eyes in it. We took out the gravel also for not wanting our fish to choke on a piece if they should decide to suck it up/eat it. Not only that but didn't want nasty bacteria just sitting in there between the gravel. You'll want to make sure you syphon that mess up while doing large weekly water changes. Your tank looks like it has a thin layer of it at least. Better than what we had. We had a thick layer of it when we started keeping fish. :(

Edited by 4prettyfish
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Hi 4prettyfish,

Thank you for your good wishes, I hope they feel better soon too, it breaks my heart to see them unhappy.

They really are beautiful fish when they are at their best - its horrible seeing them with red marks and growths!

I have a fantastic syphon that sucks the gravel right up into it when cleaning the bottom of the tank, It swooshes it around and it drops back down so it all gets a really good clean, and you are right, because it is only a thin layer I can still see the bottom of the tank and know that it is clean. They got freaked out by having a bare bottom tank, think they felt exposed as it is reflective. They also love to root around in the gravel :)

I removed the ornaments last night and did a 50% water change.

Should I do another 50% tonight Koko?

I tested the KH and PH of the tap water last night:

KH: 10-11 (10 drops turned the test dirty yellow and 11 drops bright yellow - API Liquid Freshwater Master Test Kit - drops)

PH: 7.4 - 7.6 Its right in the middle of the low PH and high PH testers. 7.4 was closer in colour than 7.6

Ive left the bucket out and will test again tonight and post results.

Update on the fish themselves:

Squeesh (with popeye and facial growth) seems happy in herself still, swimming around and active. Her actual eye seems to have reduced and is closer in size to the other eye now. The growth is the same - no bigger, no smaller. The blister like spots have gone though.

Norman (red patches) was really struggling last night, I think he is having SB issues. I mentioned he was sitting head down, butt up a bit? Well last night he flipped right over and was resting upside down. He did this 4 or 5 times, both before and after the water change.

He seemed happy enough upside down, he was breathing and his fins weren't clamped. It was as if it was too much effort to try to stay upright the whole time so he had a little rest upside down. He would soon straighten himself out and start swimming around again, rooting for food and hanging out mid tank level. Dorsal fin straight up and no clamping.

I fed him some peas as that was the only green veggie I had in the house (it was quite late) and I didnt give them any food this morning, thinking I should fast him or just veggies (they like spinach and courgette/zucchini) for a couple of days? What do you think?

He was the right way up this morning, hanging around mid tank, swimming about.

Red patches on his body have nearly gone, they are still on his fins but are fading.

Hope everyone has a wonderful Wednesday, and thanks again for the help :)

Dawn

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Ok great, so:

  • 50% water change tonight and test the KH and PH of tank.
  • Check and report KH and PH of bucket left overnight last night
  • Check KH and PH of tank in another 24 hours (after water change tonight) as well as Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate.

Is that correct?

Thank you!!

D

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Ok great, so:

  • 50% water change tonight and test the KH and PH of tank.
  • Check and report KH and PH of bucket left overnight last night
  • Check KH and PH of tank in another 24 hours (after water change tonight) as well as Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate.
Is that correct?

Thank you!!

D

:thumbup2::goodjob

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Ok cool, I will try to get hold of them.

Please excuse my ignorance but I've never really used meds - is Prazi and Metro a combined medication? Or two separate ones? I know what Prazi is, but I dont think I can get it in the UK. Not sure if you are referring to a combi med? Do you have a brand name you could recommend so I can try to Google it and see if I can find a supplier?

Also - the Kanamycin - are flakes ok? they are eating so should be able to get them to eat it. I found this, would this be suitable? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fish-Antibiotic-Flake-Food-Kanamycin-Sulfate-Treats-Negative-Gram-Bacteria-/170875947817

The thing on Squeesh's face has popped! Whatever was in there has drained away and there is just a ragged, flappy bit of skin and inside looks pale pink.

She wouldnt sit still - this is the best I could get:

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/photo3-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/dawnyb1/media/photo2-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Should I do another 50% water change tonight to try to get out whatever will have drained into the water?

I was going to salt it as well to prevent infection - I usually use aqualibrium aquarium salt - would Epsom salt like you suggest above also be good for it?

For a 42 gallon tank I'd add one teaspoon?

I tested the water I left in the bucket over night, both sets of results below. For the record I find it very hard to tell the difference in colour between 7.4 and 8.0 on the high PH test - so when I've said 7.4 - 7.6 previously - it could in fact have been 8.0. I use the API Freshwater drops, do you know the one I mean? the 7.4 and 8.0 brown colours are painfully similar.

Tuesday night, from the tap:

PH: 7.4 - 7.6 (but as said above - could actually be 8.0)

KH: 10-11 (10 drops turned it dirty yellow, 11 drops bright yellow)

Wednesday night, after 24 hours

PH: 7.4 - 7.6 (but as said above - could actually be 8.0)

KH: 9-10 (9 drops turned it dirty yellow, 10 drops bright yellow)

I also took the liberty of testing my tap water for Ammonia and Nitrates. I dont usually have Ammonia in my tank but when I tested straight after the water change I had 0.25. Sure enough - when I tested the tap water that had 0.25 too. My BB must do a good job of neutralising it as I usually have 0 in my tank.

As far as Nitrates go I have never seen a test from my tank or tap which is below 40. It seems I have Nitrates in my tap water, and I cant find any way of keeping them at bay except water changes.......with 40 in the water!

Never have Nitrites, and none in tap water either.

I tested all the tank parameters straight after the water change last night and will do so again tonight and post the results side by side for you.

Norman is still flipping over and resting on his back.

Should I fast him? Or just veggies? I gave them some food yesterday as their poop was completely empty - like a little tube with nothing in it.

The red patches are better on Norm, just on his dorsal now, but his behaviour is worrying, and Im also worried about Squeesh getting an infection now her lump has burst.

Really appreciate all your help with this, Im trying not to panic but Im so worried Im going to lose them both!

Dawn

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