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Reds12

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I have 2 orandas that have a weird growth on their heads. I thought at first it was wen since it was only on one of them, but the other has the same lump in the same spot now. Both act very lethargic, laying at the bottom, back corner of the tank. Fins aren't clamped, but tails are pretty much limp. If I come to the tank they perk up and swim around very wiggly, but thats about the only time...that and when they get food. These two tend to go through little bouts of illness once or twice a year, (maybe due to having dropsy a few years ago?) nothing that usually a good water change doesnt help, but it was only a few months ago they were really sick, requiring medication etc in order to get better so now I'm nervous. There doesnt seem to be much else to their appearance other than their fins are looking thin. Not ragged or frayed, but like they've lost some mass and are more transparent. The one has a red streak in her tail, which she always gets when shes sick. Also, suggestions on a product to bring down nitrate would be greatly welcomed...TYIA!

Currently they are living in a 36 gallon tank, with two aqueon quietflow filters running, an airstone bubbler, plants, and an almost bare bottom (there is a little sand and a couple of 1-2" riverstones because they really like playing with it)

Parameters using aqueon master test kit drops

- Tank

pH = 7.6

ammonia = 0

nitrite = 0

nitrate = over 100! (this is significantly different than a few days ago)

temperature = room temp, but its consistently 80 degrees in here, so its warmer than I'd like

- Tap

pH = 8.0

ammonia = 0.5

nitrite = 0

nitrate = 0

36 gallon tank...we've had it for a few years but have done a 100% water change as recently as a few months ago due to illness.

aqueon quietflow 30 (two of them)

water changes once a week (10 days if I lose track) and about 30%

30% water change 2-3 days ago. There are two 2-ish inch orandas (body only) and three 1inch tetras. We use seagrams prime and aquarium salt occasionally. They get fed small amounts of pellets a couple times a day, and steal some flakes from the tetras who are only fed once. They also get peas once in a while.

IMG_9250_zps835b93dc.jpgIMG_9241_zps0128d41f.jpg

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Hello,

I'm sorry your fish are having issues, and hopefully we can do something about it. Do they still have an appetite? Will you hone in more on the bump for better pics? Is it bloody underneath the bump, or is it wen colored?

I would like for you to try to find two things for me: metronidazole (or General Cure if you cannot find metronidazole by itself), and Furan-2/bifuran.

Thanks.

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Hi, thanks for replying! I'll get photos right now. The bump looks like its wen colored with possibly fluid under? Kind of like a blister.

And yes, I do have both of those medications already on hand :)

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I unfortunately can't get a better picture. These guys wont stop moving whenever I'm near the tank. I am pretty positive it is clear fluid inside though, its fairly transparent.. Hopefully we can still work with the images I did get...

I also don't have general cure specifically, but do have seachem metronidazole.

Edited by Reds12
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Also, you'll want to increase the amount of water you change to keep the nitrates down. This is especially important during treatment. Dnalex may suggest you use a QT tank since you have tetras in the tank.

Edit: Goldfish create a lot of waste, so we recommend at least 50% water change per week. This is when the fish are healthy. When goldfish are sick, do as many water changes as you need to to keep nitrates below 20.

Edited by LisaCGold
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I unfortunately can't get a better picture. These guys wont stop moving whenever I'm near the tank. I am pretty positive it is clear fluid inside though, its fairly transparent.. Hopefully we can still work with the images I did get...

I also don't have general cure specifically, but do have seachem metronidazole.

See the suggestion below re: pic. :)

I have a few more questions/suggestions:

1) Did you ever treat your fish for internal/external parasites, including flukes? If so, when and what did you use to treat?

2) May we see a video of both fish, please?

3) I actually am leaning more toward using general cure, because it contains the anti-worm medicine praziquantel in addition to the metronidazole. This is available at Petsmart. Do you think you could get this?

4) I'd like for you to do a very big water change (even 100%) and then check your water parameters again. 100+ in nitrates is quite high, and will contribute to your fish not being happy.

5) Even though we will treat both fish, we can't use the main tank, since the furan is going to kill the bio-filter. Do you have a 10 gallon tank/tub you could you as a QT?

Can someone take a photo while you gently hold a fish in your hands?

Great suggestion, Lisa. :)

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Good morning! Thank you again for your help. To answer your questions dnalex, they've had both salt treatment and methylene blue treatment. Last one was april/may-ish of this year. I have no problem getting general cure so if you think that's the one to go for just I can pick it up later this morning. I actually may have plain prazi here already since we use it for the dogs too. I do have a QT tank so I'll get them into it this morning in some fresh water. I'll do a water change in the main tank, but what do I do with the filter media? Do I leave it alone, change the filters? tyia



Video - http://youtu.be/9hfI2nqOaeQ



images


fish2_zps7997ba6b.jpgfish1_zps75dc4e65.jpg


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What filter media do you have?

Did you get a chance to do a big water change? What are the water parameters after the change?

Thanks for the photos. Dnalex or a mod should be able to use those to figure out next steps.

Your tank is beautiful! Are those blue things glass? Very cute fish!

Edited by LisaCGold
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Hello, how are things? Did you decide to get the General Cure, or would you prefer to use prazi + metro? Either way is fine with me, and I can help with setting the dosage and schedule of treatment.

The salt and methylene blue treatments definitely is good, but I think that what you are seeing is not because of the bumps on the wen, but more to do with flukes and/or other external parasites.

Once you answer Lisa's question up above, we can decide on what to do with the filter/filter media while the fish are in QT! :)

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Another question: in your first post, I saw that you mentioned they may have had dropsy before. You put a question mark after that. Are you not sure about that? The reason I ask this is because if they have had dropsy before, then using salt in any future treatment takes special consideration. It seems if a fish gets dropsy then they can get sensitive to salt.

When treating for flukes, Alex will want to use salt in addition to praziquantel. He will want to know about the dropsy before deciding this.

Edited by LisaCGold
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I decided to just go with the general cure. As for filter media I have the standard activated carbon filter cartridge that goes with the quietflow. I did do a large water change and am about to check parameters again this morning so will post them once I've completed that.

Lisa, they definitely did have dropsy. I was more questioning if the dropsy is the possible reason they get sick more easily. And thank you, my tank is simple but it works. And yesm the blue stones are glass :)

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Sorry for the delay :) Life doesn't always go as timed when you have an 18month old child. lol

The new parameters are...

pH - 7.6

amm = 0.25

nitrite = 0

nitrate = 20

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I went to the store this morning and grabbed a GH/KH strip to check it...I know nothing about these though so I'll need to be advised if somebody could :)

GH = 120-180ppm and

KH = 80ppm

My girl isn't doing very well and is trying really hard but she almost looks like she "faints" and rolls onto her side, then its like she comes to, rights herself and is ok for a while. I've never seen this so I'm very, very worried about her :(

Help!

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I went to the store this morning and grabbed a GH/KH strip to check it...I know nothing about these though so I'll need to be advised if somebody could :)

GH = 120-180ppm and

KH = 80ppm

My girl isn't doing very well and is trying really hard but she almost looks like she "faints" and rolls onto her side, then its like she comes to, rights herself and is ok for a while. I've never seen this so I'm very, very worried about her :(

Help!

I'm so sorry :(

As we move on, I just wanted you to know that we are going to try to do all that we can to help, but given how sick they are, I'm not sure that we will make it in time. :(

Having said that, let's go ahead and add both the GC and the furan to the QT (with fresh water + conditioner), with the dosage according to the instructions. Let me know once you've done that.

Hang in there!

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Thank you :) I know the outcome here is grim...I haven't seen them like this before.

My girl, George, (we didnt know she was a girl) is doing quite poorly. I don't think she'll make it to tonight even but we're trying. I have her next to me since every so often it seems I have to "remind" her to breathe. Hopefully stimulation to breathe will last long enough to get the meds moving her in the right direction. :( My boy, Wiggles, however is still pretty feisty. He's the stronger of the two anyways, so I actually have high hopes for him. He's still swimming, eating, and socializing with me so fingers are crossed.

Everything is done, in QT with the meds and fresh conditioned water. Parameters are pH=7.6, ammo=0, nitrites=0, nitrates=0, GH=120, KH=120. I remember when I treated them with dropsy one of the books I was consulting said something about bringing the water temp up...do I need to do anything with temp in this case?

Again, thank you, you have no idea how much I appreciate this. :)

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Thank you :) I know the outcome here is grim...I haven't seen them like this before.

My girl, George, (we didnt know she was a girl) is doing quite poorly. I don't think she'll make it to tonight even but we're trying. I have her next to me since every so often it seems I have to "remind" her to breathe. Hopefully stimulation to breathe will last long enough to get the meds moving her in the right direction. :( My boy, Wiggles, however is still pretty feisty. He's the stronger of the two anyways, so I actually have high hopes for him. He's still swimming, eating, and socializing with me so fingers are crossed.

Everything is done, in QT with the meds and fresh conditioned water. Parameters are pH=7.6, ammo=0, nitrites=0, nitrates=0, GH=120, KH=120. I remember when I treated them with dropsy one of the books I was consulting said something about bringing the water temp up...do I need to do anything with temp in this case?

Again, thank you, you have no idea how much I appreciate this. :)

Anytime! :hug

As long as the temp is in the high 60s or 70s, we are in good shape. One of the reasons why temps may need to be in a certain range is if we are feeding medicated foods, we want the temp in a good range to promote metabolism of the drugs. :)

You use Seachem Prime as the water conditioner, right? If that's the case, I would like for you to add 1 dose of Prime to the QT tank to help detoxify any ammonia that might crop up. Then, on Monday, please do a 100% WC, add conditioner, and then replace the meds. We are going to continue that trend of replacing meds every 2 days after 100% WC, and adding Prime on the non-WC days. This will go for 10 days, possibly to 14.

I know the situation with George is now entirely up to fate, but I have seen fish come back from much worse, actually. So, we shall continue to think good healing thoughts, and hope for the very best of outcomes. :)

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As for the filter and the old tank, I would like for you to throw in some foods to the tank, and then vacuum it out every 2-3 days. This is so that we can continue to "feed" the bio-filter while the fish are not there.

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I decided to just go with the general cure. As for filter media I have the standard activated carbon filter cartridge that goes with the quietflow. I did do a large water change and am about to check parameters again this morning so will post them once I've completed that.

Lisa, they definitely did have dropsy. I was more questioning if the dropsy is the possible reason they get sick more easily. And thank you, my tank is simple but it works. And yesm the blue stones are glass :)

I just got done hanging out with my four year old niece. Kids do take priority and certainly deserve it.

My fish have not had dropsy, but everything I've read on this forum does say that after dropsy a fish becomes more sensitive and can more easily get sick then other fish so pristine water conditions are necessary. So your suspicion is right. Also, the use of salt should be avoided.

Regarding filter media, most people on this forum that I've read, including myself, do not use carbon filter media unless one needs to take medication out of the water (and then it usually is done with a full water change).

What about media for growing the beneficial bacteria? Actually, before answering this, I suggest starting a thread under tank and equipment so as to not derail this thread and keep it on point for the treatment of your fish. I suggest asking about filter tank media. If you don't know already, you'll learn a lot from the responses. There is actually some good pinned articles/threads on filter and filter media under the tank and equipment sub forum.

Edited by LisaCGold
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I agree with Lisa that once we get this issue settled, you should switch to assembling your own non-carbon filter media. It's cheaper, more robust, and is extremely customizable. :)

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You two are amazing. I'll definitely read those threads and take up some advice for sure :) She's still kicking so I guess we'll see how she does overnight. Thank you so much!

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