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Kayla102968

Finally found some eggs before my pond crew ate them :)

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It's REALLY difficult to say what color they will be, at this point. They haven't even gotten their fry colors, yet. The button eyes points toward that that little cutie is a shubie, though! As for the other cutie... could be white- could be gold- could be sarassa- could be another shubie. Time will tell! ;)

They sure are super adorable, though!

Thanks Jamie :).

The bigger baby is nacreous and should be coloring soon. It also looks a little overfed. The smaller baby may also be nacreous too. The view that shows the top hints at some spots forming which would indicate a shubunkin. If both parents are shubunkins or one is wild colored, you will get fully colored shubunkins. If the metallic parent is yellow or red, you will get sakuras, which may have blue and black when they are little, but will lose it.

Yes...I was away for 4 days and I think my husband may have overfed them a little (only twice a day..but may have put in a little too much each time). Plus, I think they fill up with algae from the plants...they are always nibbling in there, and then when they are fed the bbs or the powder, the bigger one eats that too.

I'm still not the greatest at determining how colours work in goldfish. I think you said that shubunkins have nacreous and metallic scales. If you have a nacreous goldfish with no metallic scales and button eyes...is that still a shubunkin...or what would it be called? Do nacreous goldfish always have some metallic scales or can you have a fully nacreous fish?

If you have a shubunkin male and a red female...you won't get any shubunkins?

I'm going to have to decide what I'm going to do with these babies over the winter. That means by the end of September. No one will take such small babies especially before the winter. Will the babies be big enough to handle the winter without a heater or should I do what I did last year and enclose the pond and use a heater set to keep the pond 10 degrees warmer than the temperature would be, but no warmer than 65 degrees (when it shuts off). If 30 babies happen to survive (I have no idea how many in the pond are still there...it started with 42) could I keep them over the winter in two 300 gallon ponds and put a few in the 700 gallon pond with my 9 adults? Or will I be needing another container to house them over winter until I can give them away in the spring? I can put one of the 300 gallon ponds in the garage (but the garage is not heated).

I'm going to try and build a 55 gallon bucket filter this summer to put on the 700 gallon tank. We'll see how that goes.

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Nacreous means the fish has both matt and metallic scales. It has both the gene for metallic scales and the gene for matt scales. This is one of those cases where neither gene is dominant. Some areas of the fish skin will express the metallic gene and some areas the matt gene. Shubunkins are nacreous. The alternatives are metallic fish with all metallic scales and matt fish. A matt fish always has two button eyes, a metallic fish always has two normal eyes, and a nacreous fish may have two button eyes, two normal eyes or one of each.

A cross between a wild-colored metallic and a matte will result in 100% shubunkin offspring. tt x TT --> Tt (t is for transparent)

A cross between two fully calico shubunkins will produce 1/4 wild metallic, 1/2 shubunkin, and 1/4 matts. Tt x Tt --> 1/4 tt, 1/2 Tt, 1/4 TT

A cross between a shubunkin and a wild-colored metallic produces half wild-colored metallics and half shubunkins. Tt x tt --> 1/2 Tt, 1/2 tt.

The mutation that resulted in the goldfish becoming domesticated is the demelanizing or xanthic mutation. This mutation causes a fish to lose its melanin at sometime between two months and a few years of age, resulting in a red, orange or yellow fish. This mutation is dominant. If a nacreous fish has a demelanizing gene, all the black/blue will turn to shades of red/orange/peach/pink resulting in a sakura shubunkin.

Since a red fish has the demelanizing gene, and this gene is dominant to the wild type, when you cross a red goldfish with a calico fish, the nacreous offspring will be sakuras.

Your babies will be fine without a heater. People who live in colder climates leave the previous season's babies under ice for the winter. They'll be selling size in two months.

Edited by shakaho

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Nacreous means the fish has both matt and metallic scales. It has both the gene for metallic scales and the gene for matt scales. This is one of those cases where neither gene is dominant. Some areas of the fish skin will express the metallic gene and some areas the matt gene. Shubunkins are nacreous. The alternatives are metallic fish with all metallic scales and matt fish. A matt fish always has two button eyes, a metallic fish always has two normal eyes, and a nacreous fish may have two button eyes, two normal eyes or one of each.

A cross between a wild-colored metallic and a matte will result in 100% shubunkin offspring. tt x TT --> Tt (t is for transparent)

A cross between two fully calico shubunkins will produce 1/4 wild metallic, 1/2 shubunkin, and 1/4 matts. Tt x Tt --> 1/4 tt, 1/2 Tt, 1/4 TT

A cross between a shubunkin and a wild-colored metallic produces half wild-colored metallics and half shubunkins. Tt x tt --> 1/2 Tt, 1/2 tt.

The mutation that resulted in the goldfish becoming domesticated is the demelanizing or xanthic mutation. This mutation causes a fish to lose its melanin at sometime between two months and a few years of age, resulting in a red, orange or yellow fish. This mutation is dominant. If a nacreous fish has a demelanizing gene, all the black/blue will turn to shades of red/orange/peach/pink resulting in a sakura shubunkin.

Since a red fish has the demelanizing gene, and this gene is dominant to the wild type, when you cross a red goldfish with a calico fish, the nacreous offspring will be sakuras.

Your babies will be fine without a heater. People who live in colder climates leave the previous season's babies under ice for the winter. They'll be selling size in two months.

Ah...the good o'le Punnett square...who knew it worked for goldfish genetics :).

That's neat information Sharon, thank you for posting it all.

If I make a 55 gallon drum filter, can I use the same size PVC pipe/uniseals as I used in the 30 gallon for everything (input/output) even with a stronger pump?

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To get the maximum output of your pump you should use larger pipe. Remind me of the size you used in the 30 gallon.

Edited by shakaho

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To get the maximum output of your pump you should use larger pipe. Remind me of the size you used in the 30 gallon.

For the 30 gallon filter I used a 2" pvc for the drain and the return to the pond; for the pvc that moves the pumped water into the filter, it was 1" pipe.

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I'd upgrade to 1 1/2 inch tubing/pipes from the pump to the filter. The others are fine. You should actually find that the bigger drum drains faster because it is taller.

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I'd upgrade to 1 1/2 inch tubing/pipes from the pump to the filter. The others are fine. You should actually find that the bigger drum drains faster because it is taller.

Thanks Sharon. I checked the laguna max-flo 1350 pump and it's largest attachment is 1 1/4" , I would have to go up to a laguna 2000 to get a 1.5" attachment. Do they even have 1 1/4" hose/pvc, or would I have to stick with 1"?

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I guess the laguna maxflo 2000 only goes up to 1.25" hose coupling too. I was surprised that the price difference between the laguna 1350 and laguna 2000 is only $30. Would the 2000 be too strong for the 700 gallon pond and 55 gallon filter?

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I cut up some frozen blood worms for the babies today and they really loved them. They aren't nearly as excited for bbs or powder food. They still love to eat amongst the plants for algae and things too though. There is hardly any difference in size between the 2 babies now. The easiest way to tell them apart is their eyes...one has button eyes and one does not.

Here is a video and some pictures from today. On one photo of the regular eyed goldfish, I accidently used flash and so she looks whiter in the picture than she is in real life....but the flash showed up her speckles on her head very well and so I included the photo :).

Video:

http://vid1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/MVI_0924_zps96194dcc.mp4

Pictures:

Speckles on the top of the babies head:

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_0926_zps6457cd8c.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_0941_zps26fbfe54.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_0937_zps103cd68c.jpg

Button eyed baby:

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_0947_zpsd6dd239a.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_0965_zps66fb6563.jpg

Thanks for looking :).

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What you do is use a 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" adapter right at the pump. I use 1 1/2" hose with a pump that takes a 1 inch fitting I just put on an adapter. Then get these from Lowes to connect hose to pipe. It's the best and cheapest barb fitting I've found and it's hidden in the swimming pool equipment.

Yes, there are 1 1/4" pipes and fittings and hose. You can also check out swimming pool vacuum hose and sump pump hose, which are cheaper than those for ponds. The swimming pool hoses are usually blue which will be less conspicuous in your pond than black.

The 2000 should be fine if you want to go with it.

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Thanks for the pics/links and description Sharon...I ended up ordering the Laguna 1350.

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The babies seem to be doing well, they are 4.5 weeks old. I now have 7 babies in my 20 gallon long. I initially had 2, but then wanted to see how some of the others were doing in the pond. I didn't specifically search babies out of the pond, I just placed the bowl in the pond and lifted it up and underneath them. There are a few babies in the pond that are actually much larger than the 2 I have in the inside tank. Most of the babies in the pond are smaller though. None have colored yet, they are still varying patterns of transparent, white, grey, brown, yellow and black. Most have button eyes. Here are a few photos:

Small baby brought in from the pond...button eyes and white color:

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1140_zps6abdcf78.jpg

This was the tiniest one brought in from the pond...he is darker than the others, but had a very full belly when I first brought him inside, so he certainly wasn't having problems finding food. Here he is when I first brought him in:

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1144_zps6eeb4a25.jpg

This photo shows some of the size difference between fish found in the pond. In the middle is a medium size fry and to the left underneath the water hyacinth leaf is a smaller fry.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1162_zps51b475e5.jpg

One fry hiding in the roots of the plants:

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1169_zps4fbfb546.jpg

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One of the two tiny fry I brought inside has strange movements. She moves awkwardly and jerkily and often bends her body in weird positions. Sometime she will be following down the side of the tank nose first and then suddenly falls a ways; I have also seen her do barrel rolls where she does a complete 360 degrees horizontally at the top of the tank. When I first brought her in from outside she was very skinny (there was nothing in her tummy) and she was small with big eyes, so I'm pretty sure she was having trouble getting food. Now that she is inside she is easily getting her food but she does seem to have difficulty swimming. I'm wondering if she has a swim bladder issue (although I can see her swimbladder since she is transparent and it looks fine I think), or if these movements could be caused by lacking one or more fins. I have also read that matte goldfish with button eyes often develop swimming problems and was wondering if anyone else had heard of this or if there was truth in it. I do have another tinier baby who is dark colored with regular eyes and does not have this swimming problem...I'm not sure why he was so tiny since he had a full belly.

I'm guessing if I put her back in the pond she might not survive and now that I've spent time with her I don't feel like leaving her to her demise. Do you think she will be okay as she grows or will she have a poor quality of life?

Here are some videos:

Here she is 'free falling' down the tank:

Here are examples of her strange movement...she's the tiniest fish in the videos:

Right now it looks like 80% of my babies have button eyes and they all (except for 1 that I've seen are tan colored and translucent). Does that mean they will be mattes or can shubunkins have 2 button eyes?

I only have one adult fish in the pond that has button eyes and that is Misty (blue shubunkin). I think she has one button and one regular eye?

Thanks for looking :)

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It sounds like both parents were shubies. Shubunkins can have two normal eyes, two button eyes, or one of each. Two shubies who both have normal eyes will have, among their nacreous offspring, some of each of the three eye possibilities.

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It sounds like both parents were shubies. Shubunkins can have two normal eyes, two button eyes, or one of each. Two shubies who both have normal eyes will have, among their nacreous offspring, some of each of the three eye possibilities.

Interesting. If most of my babies have button eyes...does that mean that Misty (my only button eyed goldfish) was one of the parents...or not necessarily?

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No. Whether or not a nacreous fish has a button eye is developmental. A nacreous fish has matt and metallic patches. If the eye is in a matt patch, it will have no reflective guanine and will be button. An eye in a metallic patch will have guanine and the iris will be reflective -- the normal eye.

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No. Whether or not a nacreous fish has a button eye is developmental. A nacreous fish has matt and metallic patches. If the eye is in a matt patch, it will have no reflective guanine and will be button. An eye in a metallic patch will have guanine and the iris will be reflective -- the normal eye.

I get it now :) ... great explanation...thanks.

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Here are updated pics of the larger fry. Please excuse the dirty looking bottom...I siphon the bottom clean with an air hose every morning and by the evening it looks dirty again...from all the poops and the plants. The fry look kinda scary right now since they look blood red and pinky...I looked around on the internet and can't see any fry that look as red as mine do. I checked the water parameters they looked so red...but the water is fine. I added an airstone a week ago.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1345_zps0f23f63a.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1348_zpsf9ba22e7.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1350_zpsa17db560.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1346_zpsff7afb66.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_1347_zpsa8ac52cc.jpg

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My fry are 6.5 weeks old now. There is a large size difference between some of the fry in my tank. The ones in the pond outside have large size differences too. A few of them are larger than the ones inside and some are smaller. The ones in the pond seem to have more colour than the ones inside.

I'm going to be going away for 5 days in mid September...so everybody will be back in the fry pond then. Until then I am enjoying seeing the fry inside develop and change...amidst lots of siphoning and water changes :).

I'm still feeding frozen baby brine shrimp and crushed pellets. Do I still need to be feeding bbs at 6 weeks of age? Or is feeding them crushed pellets and the plants in the tank fine?

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You can make them some gel food -- like repashy --and toss in a block for them to nibble on. I like Omega One flakes. They are easy to break into small pieces for babies.

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My LPS says they have repashy for geckos...is that the same one fish can use? Is there a certain kind I should get..soilent green, meat pie, superfood? I know they will have Omego One flakes for sure.

Thanks,

Kayla

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Soilent green is very good. I wouldn't feed them gecko food.

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My LPS says they have repashy for geckos...is that the same one fish can use? Is there a certain kind I should get..soilent green, meat pie, superfood? I know they will have Omego One flakes for sure.

Thanks,

Kayla

I know I'm way behind you, but I read Repashy Spawn & Grow was a good one. :)

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Sharon - I thought Repashy was like 'Progold' and was a product that you could feed to fish (but just happened to be good for amphibians too). Apparently there is a difference between Repashy for fish and Repashy for geckos :).

The babies love the Omega One Flakes a lot...they eat them up really fast.

Kathleen - thanks for the information...I'll have to search for Fish Repashy at my LFS...rather than my LPS - Congratulations on your fry...I'm following along and I'm excited to see if they will get those cute telescope eyes :).

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