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I Don't Think I Can Do This Anymore...


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I want to point out that while Davids response probably unintentionally made it appear the bubble bars may have contributed to the problem, the underlying cause of the problem was ammonia.

On the thread I posted my parameters - my ammonia was 0.

Again I know nothing about any of this. All I know is I added a large air stone bar one day. It was very strong and all the fish started constantly surface gulping. Then I removed it and they stopped. I just thought I was possibly helping this person...... I regret bringing it up - I must not have gotten my facts straight. Sorry

How are your fish now?

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/117717-hello-again/

They're great - I thought I had a white poop issue recently but I was told to hold off on my soilent green gel food and starting giving lionhead pellets again - and now I have brown poop again* - so all good.

Except my 2 big fish get floaty after eating pellets so I have to give peas and then they're fine - but I'm hoping that they're just adjusting back to pellets and this too will pass...... we'll see.

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Here's where I'm at, and if we can get this thread back on topic it would be most beneficial so that we can begin discussing this based on this latest step I have arrived at -- I am thinking of removing about half the gravel in the tank for now, removing the ornaments and just leaving the tall plants that are in there now, arranging them differently instead of just in the corners...do you guys think this will definitely help with the possibility of bacteria taking hold as I continue thinking about whether I want to do sand or not? As I said, my substrate is natural colored "river rock" type gravel that is in larger and smaller pieces; it is not a wild colored variety or anything like that, so could I begin with just thinning the layer of gravel for now?

I think you're definitely on the right track! :)

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and to the poster - sorry this went off track of your issues at hand. I hope your oranda stays healthy and your tank issues are resolved soon*

No worries; thanks. And I hope your fish are ok.

Thank you for the encouraging words, everyone; I will keep you all updated as I move forward with the removal of the gravel and report back with Rubio's reaction, condition, etc...

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THIS is what I was kind of envisioning for the redesign (for now) without the pots inbetween, just the plants spaced out like that...but I have four green and one red and green, so there would be more (the pic below is NOT of MY tank)...

What do you guys think?

75g---Fancy-Goldfish----010810.jpg

Would this look better, do you think, than what I have now with a large bridge ornament, a Bonzai tree and an Asian gazebo decoration?

Edited by ClinicaTerraLTD
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That amount of gravel is just about perfect, and at least to me, if that's the kind of substrate you want to have, that much should not pose health problems for the fish.

There will be detritus among the gravel, even after vacuuming, I bet, but that does not mean bad bacteria are there, especially because you will have removed the anaerobic pocket concerns.

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That amount of gravel is just about perfect, and at least to me, if that's the kind of substrate you want to have, that much should not pose health problems for the fish.

There will be detritus among the gravel, even after vacuuming, I bet, but that does not mean bad bacteria are there, especially because you will have removed the anaerobic pocket concerns.

Thanks Al...

But what about the layout with the plants the way they are...just kind of spanning the tank like that....do you like that at least for now until I can figure out what I want to do with sand and such and whether or not these decorations I have in there are causing bacterial infection issues?

Oh, and yes -- my gravel layer is substantially thicker than what is being shown there...

Edited by ClinicaTerraLTD
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Thank you Shelli; I shall reply to you first as I attempt to get back to everyone individually now that I have some more time...

If you're disturbing the gravel bed, please remove your fish beforehand. As you recently saw, there is a lot of junk under there, and we don't want the fish negatively impacted, while trying to make his life better. :)

I will take into consideration; but a GOOD deal of the crud that was under there was already removed...:)

Also, you may need to squeeze your sponges in your filters a little more frequently, as you'll be sucking up more garbage, while fiddling with the substrate.

Acknowledged; I will check my cartridges and the AquaClear sponge...

I definitely agree with you that you should, at the very least, drop the gravel level to about a 1/2", or less. :) That will be a huge help, in itself.

Thank you; I will try to get it to that level -- or whatever will "anchor" my bubble bars and plants...



That layout is very pretty, and I don't think that anyone would have objections to it, even on an aesthetic level.

Thanks; do you think the Red Cap will "take" to it with just plants to swim about?







just wanted to show you how I clean my tank thats too big for me to reach the bottom.

DIY SIPHON DIRECT TO GARDEN:

Also I have also had bare bottom gravel and sand. The only substrate I have had issues with has been gravel. Choaking Hazzard- almost lost two fish!

But anyways, this video is of sand and siphoning. And another variation of an easy siphon

Thank you! I will look at this when I can...much appreciated!

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It is not going to look bad when you change it over to sand. It won't be a shocking difference

Gotcha Chelsea -- thanks.

It is going to look nasty and you will see one of the reasons switching to sand is a good idea. You're not even going to want to keep a small amount of gravel in there anymore once you start pulling it out. It's exactly like Jason (DP) said earlier. You're going to see all of the crud and smell all of the rotten gunk. Since you're an intelligent person, I am going to assume you will think twice about leaving any of the gravel in the tank once you see how much gunk it is trapping despite your cleanings. I know even our more stubborn members have.
:teehee

Are you trying to be a bit snide with the "you are an intelligent person" comment? Just asking because you never know when you're "communicating" with someone via a hobbyist forum such as this; didn't mean to start anything off-putting here...

I understand what you're saying about the gravel now -- though I hope there won't be much of an odor or much muck left after the last deep gravel vac I just did...

Also, the bolded post you made earlier about sand is an opinion and a very cautious one at that. I think it would be a better idea to listen to the article you were linked earlier, which has factual references as to why sand is fine for goldfish. We've already also told you how to prevent anaerobic pockets, you've seen nearly everyone in here advocate the use of sand (This is a goldfish forum, so we do know the species of fish you are keeping extremely well!) and you've seen how sand is easily and properly cleaned via Louise's video.

Acknowledged; but it didn't seem "opinion" esque to me, that's why I posted it and asked about it...it supposedly came from some kind of "how to start up a goldfish tank" article/blog piece, but I see your point regardless.

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I already also posted a video to show how easy it is to clean the sand substrate and that one looks just as easy. :)

Goldfish are... "Made" to sift substrate, it's what they do in the wild and how they eat their food.

Like Alex said, you'll find opinions to back up every other opinion out there. You'll find people claiming water changes kill their fish, medicines kill their fish, lights kill their fish, foods kill their fish, sand is the worst thing ever, people who say artificial plants are deadly, people who say artificial plants are the only way to go, etc. it's the internet, you'll find everything if it exists! But I digress. :rofl

Understood...

I have just always been told by various sources that "you can't go by what goldfish do or how they behave in their 'natural habitat' because these fish we get at most shops have already been bred in some kind of captivity and never sifted through sand or any such environment..." And this has led me to wondering if we really need their environments to be 100-percent authentic to their biotopes and such... :huh:

Edited by ClinicaTerraLTD
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It is going to look nasty and you will see one of the reasons switching to sand is a good idea. You're not even going to want to keep a small amount of gravel in there anymore once you start pulling it out. It's exactly like Jason (DP) said earlier. You're going to see all of the crud and smell all of the rotten gunk. Since you're an intelligent person, I am going to assume you will think twice about leaving any of the gravel in the tank once you see how much gunk it is trapping despite your cleanings. I know even our more stubborn members have.
:teehee

Are you trying to be a bit snide with the "you are an intelligent person" comment? Just asking because you never know when you're "communicating" with someone via a hobbyist forum such as this; didn't mean to start anything off-putting here...

I understand what you're saying about the gravel now -- though I hope there won't be much of an odor or much muck left after the last deep gravel vac I just did...

It's actually kinda funny, because I was going to respond to Chelsea, but somehow forgot. :rofl

River bottoms are always mucky, dirty, and sometimes smelly. Interestingly enough, that's where carp forage for food. So, in this instance, I think I will go on the side of mother nature...mucky muddy cruddy things don't necessarily mean disease. I am not all that intelligent though, so that may be why I say this.

Chelsea, have you looked at the bottom of Steve's pond when he did a major cleaning and posted the pics? :)

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I already also posted a video to show how easy it is to clean the sand substrate and that one looks just as easy. :)

Goldfish are... "Made" to sift substrate, it's what they do in the wild and how they eat their food.

Like Alex said, you'll find opinions to back up every other opinion out there. You'll find people claiming water changes kill their fish, medicines kill their fish, lights kill their fish, foods kill their fish, sand is the worst thing ever, people who say artificial plants are deadly, people who say artificial plants are the only way to go, etc. it's the internet, you'll find everything if it exists! But I digress. :rofl

Understood...

I have just always been told by various sources that "you can't go by what goldfish do or how they behave in their 'natural habitat' because these fish we get at most shops have already been bred in some kind of captivity and never sifted through sand or any such environment..." And this has led me to wondering if we really need their environments to be 100-percent authentic to their biotopes and such... :huh:

CT,

Some behaviors are programmed genetically, and this includes sifting behavior. There is a very large neural system in the goldfish that is responsible for exactly the function of detecting and separating out particulates from food.

Also, those who made that advice to you clearly have never even bothered to try sand before making their grand statements. If you ever do switch to sand, you will see how naturally and immediately they take to sifting among the sand. :)

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I already also posted a video to show how easy it is to clean the sand substrate and that one looks just as easy. :)

Goldfish are... "Made" to sift substrate, it's what they do in the wild and how they eat their food.

Like Alex said, you'll find opinions to back up every other opinion out there. You'll find people claiming water changes kill their fish, medicines kill their fish, lights kill their fish, foods kill their fish, sand is the worst thing ever, people who say artificial plants are deadly, people who say artificial plants are the only way to go, etc. it's the internet, you'll find everything if it exists! But I digress. :rofl

Understood...

I have just always been told by various sources that "you can't go by what goldfish do or how they behave in their 'natural habitat' because these fish we get at most shops have already been bred in some kind of captivity and never sifted through sand or any such environment..." And this has led me to wondering if we really need their environments to be 100-percent authentic to their biotopes and such... :huh:

CT,

Some behaviors are programmed genetically, and this includes sifting behavior. There is a very large neural system in the goldfish that is responsible for exactly the function of detecting and separating out particulates from food.

Also, those who made that advice to you clearly have never even bothered to try sand before making their grand statements. If you ever do switch to sand, you will see how naturally and immediately they take to sifting among the sand. :)

Alright...

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I like the new plan for the tank! Looks really nice! :)

Thanks Tith...

This isn't really a be-all, end-all plan; it's just what I had in mind while I try to "clean up" Rubio's home and get a good deal of the gravel out while removing the large ornaments incase they are adding to the bacterial issues...

Is it okay, do you think, just to have tallish plants like this without anything else -- for now?

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I like the new plan for the tank! Looks really nice! :)

Thanks Tith...

This isn't really a be-all, end-all plan; it's just what I had in mind while I try to "clean up" Rubio's home and get a good deal of the gravel out while removing the large ornaments incase they are adding to the bacterial issues...

Is it okay, do you think, just to have tallish plants like this without anything else -- for now?

absolutely! I only keep plants in my tank :idont

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I like the plan of the new tank however temporary it may be. :) In know it's not your tank in the photo, but that's about the thickness I keep the gravel in the first 2/3 of my tank (the back 1/3 is a little thicker because of all my live plants).

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I like the plan of the new tank however temporary it may be. :) In know it's not your tank in the photo, but that's about the thickness I keep the gravel in the first 2/3 of my tank (the back 1/3 is a little thicker because of all my live plants).

Thank you, Bronwyn!

So this thickness -- as suggested by the photo (that is, seemingly not too deep at all) -- is alright all throughout if I am not doing live plants?

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I like the plan of the new tank however temporary it may be. :) In know it's not your tank in the photo, but that's about the thickness I keep the gravel in the first 2/3 of my tank (the back 1/3 is a little thicker because of all my live plants).

Thank you, Bronwyn!

So this thickness -- as suggested by the photo (that is, seemingly not too deep at all) -- is alright all throughout if I am not doing live plants?

I would say so. My one caveat is that I strongly recommend doing a thorough weekly siphon of the gravel. I know we've more than flogged the proverbial dead horse with the importance of keeping the gravel as clean as possible, but wanted to make sure I didn't imply otherwise. As long as you're able to stay on top of cleaning the gravel I don't see why you wouldn't be able to keep it that way long term (I know others will disagree with me, but this is my personal opinion based on 10+ years of goldfish keeping). If over time you find that the maintenance on the gravel is still too much you may want to start thinking about sand or bare bottom, but this is an excellent place to start. :D

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I like the plan of the new tank however temporary it may be. :) In know it's not your tank in the photo, but that's about the thickness I keep the gravel in the first 2/3 of my tank (the back 1/3 is a little thicker because of all my live plants).

Thank you, Bronwyn!

So this thickness -- as suggested by the photo (that is, seemingly not too deep at all) -- is alright all throughout if I am not doing live plants?

I would say so. My one caveat is that I strongly recommend doing a thorough weekly siphon of the gravel. I know we've more than flogged the proverbial dead horse with the importance of keeping the gravel as clean as possible, but wanted to make sure I didn't imply otherwise. As long as you're able to stay on top of cleaning the gravel I don't see why you wouldn't be able to keep it that way long term (I know others will disagree with me, but this is my personal opinion based on 10+ years of goldfish keeping). If over time you find that the maintenance on the gravel is still too much you may want to start thinking about sand or bare bottom, but this is an excellent place to start. :D

Thank you; but lowering the gravel's thickness SHOULD aid in making it easier to clean, no?

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It is going to look nasty and you will see one of the reasons switching to sand is a good idea. You're not even going to want to keep a small amount of gravel in there anymore once you start pulling it out. It's exactly like Jason (DP) said earlier. You're going to see all of the crud and smell all of the rotten gunk. Since you're an intelligent person, I am going to assume you will think twice about leaving any of the gravel in the tank once you see how much gunk it is trapping despite your cleanings. I know even our more stubborn members have.

:teehee

Are you trying to be a bit snide with the "you are an intelligent person" comment? Just asking because you never know when you're "communicating" with someone via a hobbyist forum such as this; didn't mean to start anything off-putting here...

I understand what you're saying about the gravel now -- though I hope there won't be much of an odor or much muck left after the last deep gravel vac I just did...

It's actually kinda funny, because I was going to respond to Chelsea, but somehow forgot. :rofl

River bottoms are always mucky, dirty, and sometimes smelly. Interestingly enough, that's where carp forage for food. So, in this instance, I think I will go on the side of mother nature...mucky muddy cruddy things don't necessarily mean disease. I am not all that intelligent though, so that may be why I say this.

Chelsea, have you looked at the bottom of Steve's pond when he did a major cleaning and posted the pics? :)

I didn't, but I think you mentioned them before. I also have to say, though, that the gunk isn't something people really want indoors in a very visible glass box that you can smell, where it is an 'out of sight, out of mind' thing in the outdoor pond. ;) Also, there are a wider number of things outdoors to eat that stuff.

No, CT I am not being snide. You question everything thoroughly so I am sure you're very intelligent. It's difficult to get tone in just writing, definitely.

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But, Chelsea, in all the years I had gravel (not a recommended substrate btw), I never had unsightly muck, murky water, or anything of the sort. I think there must be some sort of confusion somewhere. You can definitely have some detritus mixed in with the gravel bed, but you can't see it.

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