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Sick fish?


Reds12

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I have 2 veil tail orandas that I've had for over 3 years suddenly not acting like themselves. They normally are very excitable, but are acting quite lethargic. I'll come into the room and notice them just sitting at the bottom of the tank, not just hanging out swimming low, but literally just sitting on the bottom. If stimulated, they perk up a little, but no where near as much as normal. I've noticed on one of them there is a spot that looks almost raw and has grey spots underneath the scales. He also seems to have some places on his tail that look less opaque than normal. Its not colored, or different looking other than the fact that it looks less "see-through."The other one looks to be a little red around the pectoral fins. He's always been pinkish there, but its darker than normal. They are also eating less than normal. Any idea what could be going on?

· * Ammonia Level(Tank) = 0.25 PPM

· * Nitrite Level(Tank) = 0 PPM

· * Nitrate level(Tank) = 5.0 ppm

· * Ammonia Level(Tap) = 1.0 PPM

· * Nitrite Level(Tap) = 0 ppm

· * Nitrate level(Tap) = 0 ppm

· * Ph Level, Tank = 8.0 I’ve been having trouble getting it down…

· * Ph Level, Tap = 7.6

- API freshwater master test kit

- Water temp 75 degrees (natural room temp)

- 36 gallon tank running for 3 years

- Aqueon quietflow 30 filter

- Water changes every 2 weeks, approx. 30% - last done about 2 weeks ago

- 2 veiltail orandas @ 2.5 inches, 3 red minor tetras @ 1 inch, 1 chinese algae eater @ 2 inch (very mellow, non- aggressive like they can be)

- Water additives include – API stresscoat, API stresszyme, aquarium salt

- Food = goldfish granules, tropical flakes, algae wafers and sometimes veggies – once a day

- No new fish

- No medications

- Goldfish were treated for dropsy with maracyn-oxy 3 years ago when we first got them – in a hospital tank, no treatment since

- Greyish color under the tip of the scales on one of the goldfish, a little red around the pectoral fins of the other, lethargic, stay at the bottom unless stimulated then act completely normal

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:hi and welcome

Could you please get some pics of the areas of concern? You can upload pics to the site using photobucket.com

I find it a bit odd that your nitrates are only 5 with as many fish as you have in your tank with only 30% WCs every 2 weeks. Are you following the instructions on the API drops perfectly? It involves lots of shaking (bottle #2 and the test tube once bottle #2 is added). Do you have plants in your tank?

A pH of 8 is not a problem as long as it is stable. Don't bother trying to lower it. :)

We will be able to be much more helpful if we have some pics. Thanks. :D

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Like Lisa said, can you please re-test the nitrates?

1. Fill the test tube to the line.

2. Add 10 drops of Bottle number ONE.

3. Cap and invert several times.

4. Vigorously shake bottle number TWO.

5. Add 10 drops of bottle TWO.

6. Cap and Shake for 1 Minute.

7. Let it sit for 5 minutes and record results.

Have you ever treated for flukes?

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Can you get a shot of the fish from above? Maybe put them in a separate Tupperware like container and take a pic from overhead?

Does the first fish always have the deep purple/bruise looking color to him?

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I'm concerned about the algae eater. You may not see him attack the goldfish during the day, but what about when you aren't home or the lights are out? I would remove the serpae tetras and the algae eater asap. Make it a goldfish only tank :).

Do you always add salt after every water change? If so , how much.

Do you always add Stress Zyme? That is not needed whatsoever.

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I did something wrong the first time because I retested and its more like 20 ppm, maybe a touch more for the nitrates.

No, I have not treated for flukes. I've never seen any signs of them, so I didn't think it was nec. Is this something that should be done periodically regardless?

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No, dark spots on the first one have not been there. And I suppose it is possible the algae eater is going after them at night or something. They've always been cordial, even sharing feeding off the same algae wafer at the same time, but I honestly haven't noticed any change at night, so it could be.

The salt I add every water change. I do a few TBSP. It says to add 1 rounded tbsp per 5 gallons, but I only add as much as the amount of gallons I'm changing, not the amount in the tank. Should I be doing enough for the full tank everytime?

Stress zyme I do as well every water change.

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When we get new fish, we usually QT them and treat them for flukes and other possible pathogens before they go into the tank with the existing fish.

Due to having the algae eater and tetras, you won't be able to properly treat them with the salt levels unless the fish are moved to a different tank. I am not going to recommend any treatments as I am not a mod. If a mod wants you to treat for flukes, they will say so.

Yes, usually after the initial QT we routinely do 1-2 rounds salt-less every 3-6 months

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None of these fish are new. I've had them for 3 years and they've been together the whole time. Could this pop up so much later from adding them in? I'm definitely open to treating for it, I'm just curious why it would become an issue 3 years after being placed together.

Also, here's a top view. His scales have always look like that ebc9faf0-2e67-4f22-94ca-14da5aec83fa_zpsafter he had dropsy, but he's been looked at by a doctor and he said that they were fine.

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The lesion looks like it could be inflicted by an algae eater. It's not at all unusual for these fish to coexist with goldfish for years then start eating the slime coat, and eventually eating holes in the fish. If the goldies can't sleep at night because of the attacks, they will be lethargic during theyday. The first thing to do is remove the algae eater from the tank.

For healing, it's important to have very clean water. We recommend changing at least 50% of the water every week, and that would be for a tank that just has the two goldies. I'd like to see you do a large water change, but I'm concerned about your report of 1ppm ammonia in your tap water. Is this a regular situation? Would you please check it again to be sure?

What is more concern is that you still have ammonia in the tank two weeks after a water change. A "fully cycled" filter should remove all ammonia within a few hours. So you need more filtration. We recommend your filter(s) turn over 10 times the tank volume each hour. Yours does 200 gallons per hour -- a little over half what we recommend. If you like that filter, you could get another one like it and with the two, have enough turnover for filtration.

Because there is ammonia in your tap water, I recommend you get Seachem Prime water conditioner. This can be used to inactivate the ammonia to protect your fish. Once you get that, I recommend a 75% water change.

Salt is a useful medication. While goldfish tolerate small amounts of salt well, healthy goldfish do not need it. If you use salt routinely, it will be less effective as a medication. I suggest you stop adding salt when you change water.

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Thank you!

I've moved the other fish for now, and if I should get a larger filter, I think I'll buy a larger tank for my goldies as well.

Yes, the ammonia is normal for our water. California apparently follows the new suggestion to use chloramine (chlorine and ammonia compound) instead of just chlorine. I can use filtered water from now on which should have a zero or almost zero level.

I'm very attached to these particular fish, so I appreciate your help!!! Thanks everyone!

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Great idea to get a bigger tank. Follow the 10X volume rule on a new filter. Keeping your current filter and adding another one.is really a very good plan. Two filters help to eliminate "dead spots" in the tank where waste collects.

Prime will handle the chloramine without releasing ammonia. Because it is very concentrated it's also about the cheapest water conditionaer available.

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I was looking at my tank today when doing the water change etc, and I'm wondering about undergravel filters. I have a tall tank so regular filters don't go low enough to clean the water at the bottom. Would it be worth it to get an undergravel, or are they no good?

Also, I'm now concerned about something else potentially going on. My CAE died overnight after the move. He was in the same water a in the tank since I didn't have time to prime it, but his belly was all bloated. It wasn't like that when I went to bed. What can cause bloating to come on that quickly?

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I posted yesterday about some marks on my goldies - http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/117038-sick-fish/

Afterwards I did a 50% water change, changed filter cartridge, added stresscoat and moved the CAE out and into another tank. The CAE didn't like the move and died overnight.

I noticed some changes with one of the goldies - the one who is redder than normal around the base of his pectoral fins. He's developed many red streaks in his tail and some marks on his body. Could this be septicemia? They seem much happier now that the CAE is gone and the water has been changed, but still not their normal selves.

The only think I can think of to treat this would be medicated food. What else would/should I do? Do you also think this is, or do you have other suggestions as to what it could be? I'm also stumped as to the levels increasing after a water change. Only thing I can think is I did it wrong yesterday as I tested it twice this morning with the same results.

· * Ammonia Level(Tank) = 0.5ppm

· * Nitrite Level(Tank) = 0.25ppm

· * Nitrate level(Tank) = 20ppm

· * Ammonia Level(Tap) = 1.0 PPM

· * Nitrite Level(Tap) = 0 ppm

· * Nitrate level(Tap) = 0 ppm

· * Ph Level, Tank = 8.0

· * Ph Level, Tap = 7.6

- API freshwater master test kit

- Water temp 75 degrees (natural room temp)

- 36 gallon tank running for 3 years

- Aqueon quietflow 30 filter

- Water changes last done yesterday, approx 50%

- 2 veiltail orandas @ 2.5 inches, 3 red minor tetras @ 1 inch

- Water additives include – API stresscoat, API stresszyme, aquarium salt (only stresscoat at last water change)

- Food = goldfish granules, tropical flakes, algae wafers and sometimes veggies – once a day

- No new fish

- No medications

- Goldfish were treated for dropsy with maracyn-oxy 3 years ago when we first got them – in a hospital tank, no treatment since

- Greyish color under the tip of the scales on one of the goldfish, a little red around the pectoral fins of the other, ​lethargic, stay at the bottom unless stimulated then act completely normal

red streaks on tail, IMAG0047_zpsd352c5c9.jpgIMAG0048_zpse29902d7.jpgIMAG0049_zps5fb80cee.jpg

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The conclusion of most of those who have used them in the past is that undergravel filters are not suitable for goldfish. Also tall tanks are not suitable for goldfish who do much better with shallow water and lots of area for swimming. If you are going to get a new tank for the goldies, I recommend a 40B (40 gallon breeder), which is close to ideal for two goldfish.

How deep is your gravel? Many of the people here either have a bare bottom tank or use a thin layer of sand in the bottom. Gravel collects waste which can foul the water. Also, since goldfish regularly take a mouthful of gravel and "chew" of the organic material, they sometimes get a piece of gravel stuck in their mouth/throat. Those who have had to try to remove the gravel from the fish usually quickly remove it from their tanks. We recommend that those who want a gravel substrate make it only about a half inch deep.

You can usually get (or make) an extension for the filter uptake tube to get it close to the bottom of the tank.

You are right to be concerned about the death of the CAE. It indicates something is wrong in your tank -- either chemical pollution or disease organisms. I think you should do a complete cleanout. Here is my recommendation for a procedure.

Go shopping. Get a plastic tote that holds 10-15 gallons of water to hold your fish while you clean out. Also go the the fish/pet store and get Seachem Prime (to detoxify the ammonia). If you don't have any plain liquid bleach (such as Chlorox), get some.

Put water (matching the temperature of your tank) in the tote, add Prime, and transfer your fish to the tote.

Take the biomedium from your filter and put it in clean dechlorinated water. Gently rinse it in a few changes of water then put it in the tote with the fish.

I intended to have you discard the cartridge, but since it is brand new, wash it thoroughly. Then scrub the filter box and tube very well.

Empty the tank, and remove the gravel. If you think you will want to reuse the gravel, put it aside somewhere and we can discuss how to clean it later.

Scrub and rinse the tank until it looks nice and clean and no longer smells fishy.

Now disinfect the tank and the filter box. Put in enough bleach water (1 part bleach + 19 parts water) so that your filter will work in the tank. It's best to fill the tank, but not absolutely necessary. Put the empty filter (no medium) on the tank and run it to circulate the bleach water for an hour. If the tank isn't full, wet the exposed sides with bleach water frequently enough to keep them damp.

Then dump the bleach water and rinse the tank and filter very thoroughly. You should not be able to smell bleach at all when it's well rinsed. Then wipe the tank and filter dry.

Fill the clean tank with fresh water and add twice the recommended amount of Prime. The extra is to handle any trace of chlorine from the bleach. Put the biomedia and cartridge in the filter and get it running. Sniff the filter outflow again for any sign of bleach.

So you have nothing but a clean bare tank and a clean filter. The only other thing that is OK to put in at this time is an airstone, if you use one. It needs to be a new airstone and new tubing.

Put in the fish. Test the water. Test the water daily to see how things change.

Lethargy and redness in the fins often indicate a problem with water conditions. So lets see what happens with a completely clean tank and water before medicating. I recommend you order some Metromeds, which would be the treatment of choice for an infection and is a good medication to keep on hand even if we don't have to use it now.

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Wow, excellent! I have everything but the metromeds so I'll have to get some.

I keep sand at the bottom of my tank. My one goldie really likes to sift through it and carry mouthfuls to the top, drop it, and chase it down. I have a new bag though so I can just toss it. When I bought the prime I was told it was too strong to use in a small tank on a regular basis and to use it when adding new fish or doing a large water change. I also have a box of filter cartridges so I'll just toss this one too.

Thanks so much! I appreciate the advice :)

Is there anything special I should feed them? Or are the pellets ok?

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The things fish store employees say!!! Most people here use Prime and have done so regularly for years. It is highly concentrated, so you don't use very much -- 1tsp/50 gallons. I dilute my prime 1:5 so I can use 1t/10 gallons which is a very convenient measurement. That's 1 part prime + 4 parts water.

What kind of pellets are you feeding them? Look at the ingredients. If more than one of the first four ingredients is a grain product, it's low quality. Two good brands you can usually find locally are Omega 1 and New Life Spectrum.

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I followed all of the above advice, and my goldfish are still kicking, but they now have a white mucus-y film on them. From what I've read and looked at, this is possibly columnaris?

I've brought the water temp down to just in case until I can confirm this, and have separated each fish into their own small tank to give each the best chance they can. I think I'm supposed to get furan-2 and kanamycin for antibiotics, is this correct? I'm not sure if there is anything else I can do?

Water parameters for tap water are the same as above - tank parameters are as follows

ph - 7.2

ammonia - 0.25 ---> still working on bringing this down since there is ammonia in our tap water, but its going in the right direction.

nitrite - 0

nitrate - 0

temp - 74.5

I purchased prime, so had used that for the new water, and have added an airstone. I did lower the water level since they seemed tired going up so far to get air, I don't know if this was a good or bad idea, but I thought it would conserve some of their energy at least.

What else should I be doing?

top_zps5e10d0bd.jpgfront_zps3fd474d7.jpg

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I didn't want to wait too long so I've gone ahead and tried to figure out the best that I can.

- I did a 30min bath in methylene blue, kanamycin, furan-2, and salt mixture

- added tank dosages off the bottle to the aquarium of the kanamycin and furan-2, removed the carbon filter, added an air stone,

- temperature is at 75 degrees, left ph alone (its at 7.5ish), ammonia, nitrate and nitrite are at 0

I plan to start with 2 baths a day if tolerated and will adjust from there and about 20% water change daily. If they seem to be getting any better I was going to add a small amount of Epsom salts as this seemed to help immensely when I treated them for dropsy.

Any thoughts??

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I didn't want to wait too long so I've gone ahead and tried to figure out the best that I can.

- I did a 30min bath in methylene blue, kanamycin, furan-2, and salt mixture

- added tank dosages off the bottle to the aquarium of the kanamycin and furan-2, removed the carbon filter, added an air stone,

- temperature is at 75 degrees, left ph alone (its at 7.5ish), ammonia, nitrate and nitrite are at 0

I plan to start with 2 baths a day if tolerated and will adjust from there and about 20% water change daily. If they seem to be getting any better I was going to add a small amount of Epsom salts as this seemed to help immensely when I treated them for dropsy.

Any thoughts??

I think you are adding way too much of everything, actually. Not only that, but antibiotic baths are of limited efficacy, and I am not convinced that it's columnaris.

Since the white fluffy stuff seems to be limited to wen, why don't we do this:

- remove all traces of meds out of the water

- give the fish 24 hours of just fresh clean water

- then start salting to 0.3% (see my salt article in my sig)

- we can used peroxide to swab those white areas on the wen

That's it. Then we go from there. :)

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Thank you for replying!

Two quick things, first I've had them in clean, fresh water for two days, but this just popped up today out of nowhere. The other thing, I didn't specify, the photos above are of the same fish. I couldn't get a shot of the other one that wasn't blurry, but there is some of that white stuff elsewhere, not just wen. That is where I first noticed it for sure, and where it is the most prominent.

I'll filter the meds out though overnight, and start salting in the morning. I'm not 100% convinced either since I definitely don't know much about the illness. I've always had fairly healthy fish, so this is all new to me.

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