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Hanging Out At Bottom


LisaCGold

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This is a continuation of a thread started under Water Quality: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/115042-water-change-stress-for-carmen/

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 0 (uncycled tank)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.0-8.2
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
      • * Water temperature? 71F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 29 gallon 2 months; 2.25 gallon refugium 3 days
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? AC 50 & AC 20; 2.25 gallon refugium
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? Every fourth day 80%; Alex suggested I change this to 50%
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? yesterday morning 80%; last night 50%;
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2, both about 2.25 inch bodies
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime, baking soda, put in equilibrium in yesterday morning's WC but did not put any into last night's WC
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? 1, sometimes twice a day, fresh brine shrimp, repashy soilent green, spirulina flakes
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  • * Any medications added to the tank? none
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. 3 rounds of prazi ended 12/12; in between 2nd and 3rd rounds of prazi did Epsom salt due to constipation
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? no
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? lots of bottom sitting and moving slow
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Every since the 80% water change yesterday morning, Whale (use to be Carmen) has been hanging out at the bottom. Today, Jack is also moving much slower than normal.

On 12/24, I put in equilibrium so that the kh got to 7 drops (was 3 drops). Both Jack and Whale weren't too happy about this. It took them several hours to "recover."

A couple of new things I did with the tank on 12/26:

  1. Installed refugium (2.5 gallons, quote 2.25 above which is wrong). Moved Java moss and some elodea (that was all chewed up) into refugium. Also put in bag of matrix. Prior to installation I wiped it down with chlorine water and then with a rag that had prime and water on it.
  2. Two feedings of live brine shrimp (12/26 and 12/27).
  3. Put in new elodea that had been disinfected using 1 part chlorine and 19 parts water.

On 12/27 I did the 80% water change I describe here: http://www.kokosgold...ess-for-carmen/

I put in equilibrium and got a similar response from Jack and Whale as I did on 12/24 when I first applied equilibrium.

This morning they were acting normal begging for food. I didn't feed them then and haven't feed them since.

They are hanging out at bottom and moving slower than usual. Like they are constipated or something else? I saw that Jack had a dark poop about 1 inch long. The rest of the time the poops have been small and either green (from elodea or repashy) or dark (from brine shrimp?). Oh, yesterday Whale had a long (1.5 inch) poop that was lighter in color.

Here is video of them mellowed out:

I've been thinking about this. Alex didn't think equilibrium is the problem. If it isn't that, could it be the live brine shrimp? I got the brine shrimp on 12/26 and feed them on 12/26 and 12/27. I threw out the brine shrimp today since it really doesn't last long.

Maybe I didn't disinfect/quarantine the elodea enough? I didn't see any fish in the plant tanks at the lfs.

Jeez, tinker with one variable in this bio-world and throw the whole thing off! :help:

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This is just brainstorming and I am no expert, but did you stir up the gravel a bit while you were changing around the plants and such? How thoroughly do you usually clean gravel? Somebody else needs to confirm, but I know that bacteria can build up in gravel because it is VERY hard to keep clean and maybe you unknowingly released pockets of bacteria? Somebody else please chime in on this!

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This is just brainstorming and I am no expert, but did you stir up the gravel a bit while you were changing around the plants and such? How thoroughly do you usually clean gravel? Somebody else needs to confirm, but I know that bacteria can build up in gravel because it is VERY hard to keep clean and maybe you unknowingly released pockets of bacteria? Somebody else please chime in on this!

Thank you for responding, Jennifer. The substrate is pretty thin: .25 to .5 inches. I clean is quite well each time I do a WC.

I have nothing planted into the substrate. The elodea is in a vase with gravel. That is new (12/26).

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About four hours later, both are pretty motionless. Not reacting when I come close. Please help!

I have most meds available (prazi, kanaplex, triple sulfa, metro).

Edited by LisaCGold
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What does Whale look like when he swims? Can you get a video?

Whale looks good swimming, but quite slow. Fins look good. I will try to wake him up to see if he will swim around.

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Lisa ©,

I just wanted to make sure of one thing first, before we proceed. Neither Jack nor Carmen has ever been treated with Metro-Meds, is that right?

I am still of the opinion that it's not the Equilibrium, or the plants. Usually, the concern with plants would be things like flukes and/or some other external parasite. It's possible that it's the brine shrimp. Where did you get them? I am assuming that you didn't grow them yourself.

Do you have Metro-Meds?

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Lisa ©,

I just wanted to make sure of one thing first, before we proceed. Neither Jack nor Carmen has ever been treated with Metro-Meds, is that right?

I am still of the opinion that it's not the Equilibrium, or the plants. Usually, the concern with plants would be things like flukes and/or some other external parasite. It's possible that it's the brine shrimp. Where did you get them? I am assuming that you didn't grow them yourself.

Do you have Metro-Meds?

Thank you! I've not treated Jack or Whale with MM. I do have some (never opened).

The brine shrimp came from a lfs (Denny's Pet World in Kirkland, WA).

I have a video uploading. Fantail asked for a video of Whale swimming. I'll post soon. By the way they are acting, I'm not too sure if they will eat.

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Let's try...give them 1 pellet each. I would like to know if they will eat the MMs or not. Otherwise, we will formulate some other plan. :)

They are eating! I was able to feed them 1 pellet each.

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When you have been observing your fish for a long time and sense something wrong, I put a lot of credence in that. So, we will go with the MMs for a minimum of 14 days, with tomorrow counting as the first.

I would like for you to give them another one each at some point tonight, if possible. :)

Do you know their weights by chance?

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When you have been observing your fish for a long time and sense something wrong, I put a lot of credence in that. So, we will go with the MMs for a minimum of 14 days, with tomorrow counting as the first.

I would like for you to give them another one each at some point tonight, if possible. :)

Do you know their weights by chance?

Yeah, I'm a bit of an obsessive when it comes to my fish. There are only two of them, so I know their patterns quite well.

I'll give another one each tonight.

I don't know their weights, but I have a scale with lowest weight to the gram. Will that work? I can weigh them tomorrow morning (I'll let them sleep tonight). How much do I feed them a day? I seem to remember reading in DD posts that 1% of their weight is the usual.

Thanks!

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I just remembered that Whale has a problem with pellets. Should I just proceed until he shows floaty problems? He was starting to show floaty problems with NLS, but maybe if I spread the feeding throughout the day, he won't have problems. I didn't spread out the feeding when using NLS.

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When you have been observing your fish for a long time and sense something wrong, I put a lot of credence in that. So, we will go with the MMs for a minimum of 14 days, with tomorrow counting as the first.

I would like for you to give them another one each at some point tonight, if possible. :)

Do you know their weights by chance?

Yeah, I'm a bit of an obsessive when it comes to my fish. There are only two of them, so I know their patterns quite well.

I'll give another one each tonight.

I don't know their weights, but I have a scale with lowest weight to the gram. Will that work? I can weigh them tomorrow morning (I'll let them sleep tonight). How much do I feed them a day? I seem to remember reading in DD posts that 1% of their weight is the usual.

Thanks!

Yes, weigh them in the morning, and a scale with the accuracy as yours does will be just fine. :)

We will feed 1% of their body weight in MMs daily.

I just remembered that Whale has a problem with pellets. Should I just proceed until he shows floaty problems? He was starting to show floaty problems with NLS, but maybe if I spread the feeding throughout the day, he won't have problems. I didn't spread out the feeding when using NLS.

For most fish, MMs do not seem to cause a problem with floatiness, and that's because the MMs happen to kill the types of bacteria that would cause the gas to begin with. However, it can happen sometimes, and the best way to minimize effects and compensate for the goldfish having no stomach is to spread the amount of food evenly over the course of the day.

We will feed MMs only, unless there is a necessity to add something else. :)

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When you have been observing your fish for a long time and sense something wrong, I put a lot of credence in that. So, we will go with the MMs for a minimum of 14 days, with tomorrow counting as the first.

I would like for you to give them another one each at some point tonight, if possible. :)

Do you know their weights by chance?

Yeah, I'm a bit of an obsessive when it comes to my fish. There are only two of them, so I know their patterns quite well.

I'll give another one each tonight.

I don't know their weights, but I have a scale with lowest weight to the gram. Will that work? I can weigh them tomorrow morning (I'll let them sleep tonight). How much do I feed them a day? I seem to remember reading in DD posts that 1% of their weight is the usual.

Thanks!

Yes, weigh them in the morning, and a scale with the accuracy as yours does will be just fine. :)

We will feed 1% of their body weight in MMs daily.

I just remembered that Whale has a problem with pellets. Should I just proceed until he shows floaty problems? He was starting to show floaty problems with NLS, but maybe if I spread the feeding throughout the day, he won't have problems. I didn't spread out the feeding when using NLS.

For most fish, MMs do not seem to cause a problem with floatiness, and that's because the MMs happen to kill the types of bacteria that would cause the gas to begin with. However, it can happen sometimes, and the best way to minimize effects and compensate for the goldfish having no stomach is to spread the amount of food evenly over the course of the day.

We will feed MMs only, unless there is a necessity to add something else. :)

Thank you, Alex. I will proceed tomorrow. I'll be able to spread out feedings throughout the day for the next two weeks. :)

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How are things going Lisa? :)

Thanks for asking!

Jack and Whale are doing much better today. More active and no fin clamping. Mostly swimming around waiting around for the next MM pellets to fall from the sky.

They are like different fish today. Two days ago was when they started heading down hill. Then yesterday was the worst with very little motion, fin clamping, and barely responding to me. Today is so different. I know that once I started them on MM that I need to continue this path for 14 days. It is great they are feeling better. And yet did i really need to give them antibiotics? Should have I waited to see if they would have gotten better on their own? They haven't in the past when they have gotten sick, so what makes me think it would have been different this time? I think because they have responded so quickly to the MM that makes me think, in some weird logical way, they would have gotten better on their own?? Probably not true. What does it mean to have such a quick response to MM?

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:rofl

What you just told me are actually all the signs I was looking for to show us that choosing MMs was the correct thing.

For something like this, you can expect the meds to have a very rapid effect, so this is playing out as it should. :)

I am glad they are feeling better! :)

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:roflWhat you just told me are actually all the signs I was looking for to show us that choosing MMs was the correct thing. For something like this, you can expect the meds to have a very rapid effect, so this is playing out as it should. :)I am glad they are feeling better! :)

Now I feel better that I not over medicating them! Thank you, Alex!

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