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Introducing new fish and aggression


doddmatic

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Dan, I've wondered the same thing. It might just be that the 'sin bin' helps the victim recover and the bully just eventually loses interest.... sort of like distracting a toddler with a shiny object and hoping it forgets about the cat.

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Dan, in my experience it did work. I had a small ranchu that was doing exactly the same thing as his was in the video, to all the bigger fish for hours on end. I floated him in a mesh breeder overnight and it stopped. But it could very well be because of what motherredcap said and not necessarily because of understanding of bad behavior. I'm just glad it worked! :-)

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

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Sorry to see there is unrest among the masses! :P

I have dealt with some aggression in my tank a few times in the past. The things that have worked for me are a tank divider for a couple weeks (the fish can still see each other but can't get to each other which gives them time to potentially work out their 'problems' from a safe distance) or placing the aggressor in a QT tank for a couple weeks outside the main tank. I actually used a small 10 gallon as 'punishment' when Hashi was eating Edie's tail awhile back. It took 2 times of separating them this way but it did eventually work. Whether it was the fact that he was confined to a small tank that did it or something else I have no idea, I cannot even begin to really fathom what the cognitive capacities of a goldfish are, but in the end it worked.

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Dan, in my experience it did work. I had a small ranchu that was doing exactly the same thing as his was in the video, to all the bigger fish for hours on end. I floated him in a mesh breeder overnight and it stopped. But it could very well be because of what motherredcap said and not necessarily because of understanding of bad behavior. I'm just glad it worked! :-)Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Yes precisely. I'm glad it worked out for you in the end.

I suppose the next question you could ask would be what makes it bad behaviour? Does the fish know it is behaving badly or is it simply innate? This line of questioning deviates a fair bit from the topic at hand, but it could be quite interesting if things were determinable.

I cannot even begin to really fathom what the cognitive capacities of a goldfish are, but in the end it worked.

Perhaps we can start a Koko's think tank?

(Yes the pun was intended. :rofl )

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I have to wonder whether goldfish possess the intellectual faculties to understand and learn from punishment. I know they can be taught tricks, but punished to change behaviour? Separation is more for the benefit of other fish, not to reform 'deviant' fish.

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There is a LOT of research on goldfish learning, you should do some reading. The nice thing about animal behavior research is that the papers are pretty easy to read. Goldfish certainly learn from negative stimuli. Have you ever removed a fish from a tank and then gone back with the same net (or whatever) and tried to catch another? Unless your fish are very different from mine, they respond with fear to simply observing that something bad happened to another fish.

A fish, or any other animal, doesn't have to understand the concept of punishment to respond to it. If an animal repeats actions that have negative effects, it's likely to win a "Darwin Award."

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I have to wonder whether goldfish possess the intellectual faculties to understand and learn from punishment. I know they can be taught tricks, but punished to change behaviour? Separation is more for the benefit of other fish, not to reform 'deviant' fish.

Sent from Tapatalk.

There is a LOT of research on goldfish learning, you should do some reading. The nice thing about animal behavior research is that the papers are pretty easy to read. Goldfish certainly learn from negative stimuli. Have you ever removed a fish from a tank and then gone back with the same net (or whatever) and tried to catch another? Unless your fish are very different from mine, they respond with fear to simply observing that something bad happened to another fish.

A fish, or any other animal, doesn't have to understand the concept of punishment to respond to it. If an animal repeats actions that have negative effects, it's likely to win a "Darwin Award."

I never said they couldn't learn, but I will read a paper or two. Do you have any recommendations?

So what your saying is, placing a goldfish in a colander or away from tank mates is viewed by the animal as negative, and in a bid to continue living, it will avoid doing so again. I can understand that. Perhaps I was looking at things too philosophically. If you keep all of my questioning (and believe me I can think of a lot of questions) under 'naturalness' they seem to solve themselves.

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I'm just unsure as to whether I should allow it to go on for a while and see if he calms down? Or put him bag in the tub to

spare the other fish?

put him bag in the tub to

spare the other fish

This.

imo if one fish is getting the worse of it sufficiently that we, as humans, can tell from that fish's body language s/he is beginning to suffer, separate immediately!

"Above all else, cause no harm"

-- some Greek guy, for when others' well-being rests in your hands

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I have to wonder whether goldfish possess the intellectual faculties to understand and learn from punishment. I know they can be taught tricks, but punished to change behaviour? Separation is more for the benefit of other fish, not to reform 'deviant' fish.

Sent from Tapatalk.

There is a LOT of research on goldfish learning, you should do some reading. The nice thing about animal behavior research is that the papers are pretty easy to read. Goldfish certainly learn from negative stimuli. Have you ever removed a fish from a tank and then gone back with the same net (or whatever) and tried to catch another? Unless your fish are very different from mine, they respond with fear to simply observing that something bad happened to another fish.

A fish, or any other animal, doesn't have to understand the concept of punishment to respond to it. If an animal repeats actions that have negative effects, it's likely to win a "Darwin Award."

I have to wonder whether goldfish possess the intellectual faculties to understand and learn from punishment. I know they can be taught tricks, but punished to change behaviour? Separation is more for the benefit of other fish, not to reform 'deviant' fish.

Sent from Tapatalk.

There is a LOT of research on goldfish learning, you should do some reading. The nice thing about animal behavior research is that the papers are pretty easy to read. Goldfish certainly learn from negative stimuli. Have you ever removed a fish from a tank and then gone back with the same net (or whatever) and tried to catch another? Unless your fish are very different from mine, they respond with fear to simply observing that something bad happened to another fish.

A fish, or any other animal, doesn't have to understand the concept of punishment to respond to it. If an animal repeats actions that have negative effects, it's likely to win a "Darwin Award."

Could you please link me to some of these articles? I haven't been able to find any on goldfish specifically, and am super interested! :)

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This is harder than it sounds. I find research articles using a University library. If you have access to such a library, you can search scientific journals on line. Most are not available for free (University libraries pay for this access for their students/employees) and I can't link you to them.

Here's an interesting article that is available free. Here's another. I'll find some more.

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Hey guys, just a quick update, I found the offending fish a new home at a local fish shop, he's in a shop tank

with about nine other fish and doesn't seem to be bothering any of them, I checked in on him yesterday just to make sure.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Regular Member

This is harder than it sounds. I find research articles using a University library. If you have access to such a library, you can search scientific journals on line. Most are not available for free (University libraries pay for this access for their students/employees) and I can't link you to them.

Here's an interesting article that is available free. Here's another. I'll find some more.

Here is another related article,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078302/

Thank you! :D

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