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the.koi.maiden

Floaty Oranda

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Hi! Following thread, wishing for -- and expecting -- the best. It's good that Mr. W. is in really good hands!

A: In general, higher environmental temperature (within reason) = better GF immune system function. True for mammals, too; probably why people often get a fever when they're sick. Fish lack this ability of course :(

Don't take my word for it, though

The immune system of cyprinid fish. Kinetics and temperature dependence of antibody-producing cells in carp (Cyprinus carpio). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1458243/pdf/immunology00246-0099.pdf

Differential effects of temperature on specific and nonspecific immune defences in fish. (review article)

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/201/2/165.full.pdf

Yes, in general, the higher the temp in fish, the higher the metabolism, which is good for breaking down food/meds, and cellular functions. :)

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Now, as for the fever response you are talking about, Steve, even fish can do that. It's an innate immune function that is available to fish, as well as mammals. :)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2761.1978.tb00031.x/abstract

I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism. :)

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Now, as for the fever response you are talking about, Steve, even fish can do that. It's an innate immune function that is available to fish, as well as mammals. :)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2761.1978.tb00031.x/abstract

I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism. :)

Say what?

I can be wrong, true; but am interested to see references about endogenous pyrogenesis in ectotherms

(as opposed to behavioral thermoregulation)

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-----------

Now, as for the fever response you are talking about, Steve, even fish can do that. It's an innate immune function that is available to fish, as well as mammals. :)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2761.1978.tb00031.x/abstract

I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism. :)

Say what?

I can be wrong, true; but am interested to see references about endogenous pyrogenesis in ectotherms

(as opposed to behavioral thermoregulation)

Here, Steve.

I already gave you one, but I am so glad you asked for more.

Enjoy! :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23843398/?i=2&from=febrile%20response%20fish

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22880741/?i=5&from=febrile%20response%20fish

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16950637/?i=19&from=febrile%20response%20fish

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Yes, in general, the higher the temp in fish, the higher the metabolism, which is good for breaking down food/meds, and cellular functions. :)

-----------

Now, as for the fever response you are talking about, Steve, even fish can do that. It's an innate immune function that is available to fish, as well as mammals. :)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2761.1978.tb00031.x/abstract

I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism. :)

Fever response in fish? Innate immune function?

"I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism."

Unfortunately this statement is the most confusing thing -- it contains exactly the distinction I posted above

You're kind to list references, however, thank you

They do all refer to the dependence of fishes' body temperature on their environment

btw notwithstanding any general effects of temperature on BMR, apparently higher temperatures exert an effect on certain specific steps in the immune response, in particular humoral immunity: "The possibility of a general physiological effect of temperature on the immune response as a whole is unlikely" (Rijkers, op. cit.)

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Steve,

I will tell that both endotherms (warm-blooded) and ectotherms (cold-blooded) can mount an innate (non-specific) immune response to pathogens that include raising their body temps by a few degrees. In both, this step is to limit the replication of the pathogen replication such as those of viruses and bacteria.

When we raise the temp of the fish's environment to help increase its metabolism, that of course will also have an effect on the immune system, as well as other systems. This is separate from the febrile response I am talking about.

In this case, one thing we can control to help the other fish. The other is part of the fish's immune response.

As for the papers you referenced, both are talking about the temperature threshold in which specific immunity is impaired, and this is a very fascinating topic. However, as you saw, immunity is OK at 68 degrees and higher, and Izzy's tank temp is well beyond that.

There are 3 different concepts here at least, all talking about temperature.

Thank you.

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How is Waddles, Izzy?

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This is separate from the febrile response I am talking about.

In this case, one thing we can control to help the other fish. The other is part of the fish's immune response.

As for the papers you referenced, both are talking about the temperature threshold in which specific immunity is impaired,

Could you give details on the febrile response you're writing about?

And you're correct, the papers have to do with the influence of temperature on immune response

Edited by Steve1107

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This is separate from the febrile response I am talking about.

In this case, one thing we can control to help the other fish. The other is part of the fish's immune response.

As for the papers you referenced, both are talking about the temperature threshold in which specific immunity is impaired,

Could you give details on the febrile response you're writing about?

And you're correct, the papers have to do with the influence of temperature on immune response

Steve, you can look this up yourself in any immunology book. Why don't you do that?

I would like to get back to the pertinent topic of Izzy's fish. Thank you.

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Steve,

I will tell that both endotherms (warm-blooded) and ectotherms (cold-blooded) can mount an innate (non-specific) immune response to pathogens that include raising their body temps by a few degrees. In both, this step is to limit the replication of the pathogen replication such as those of viruses and bacteria.

Innate nonspecific immune response...

Don't most -- nearly all, in fact -- bacteria and viruses reproduce/replicate faster at higher temperatures? And the host benefits from higher temperatures when the increase in the effectiveness of host immunity, especially but not limited to the (specific) antigen-antibody response, exceeds the increase in the rate of the pathogen's reproduction/replication?

Or by nonspecific immune response, you meant...cellular immunity? That's not the same as an increase in body temperature

And how exactly is it that ectotherms raise their body temperatures?

the.koi.maiden surely is going end up with the gory details in answer to her question...

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Steve,

I will tell that both endotherms (warm-blooded) and ectotherms (cold-blooded) can mount an innate (non-specific) immune response to pathogens that include raising their body temps by a few degrees. In both, this step is to limit the replication of the pathogen replication such as those of viruses and bacteria.

Innate nonspecific immune response...

Don't most -- nearly all, in fact -- bacteria and viruses reproduce/replicate faster at higher temperatures? And the host benefits from higher temperatures when the increase in the effectiveness of host immunity, especially but not limited to the (specific) antigen-antibody response, exceeds the increase in the rate of the pathogen's reproduction/replication?

Or by nonspecific immune response, you meant...cellular immunity? That's not the same as an increase in body temperature

And how exactly is it that ectotherms raise their body temperatures?

the.koi.maiden surely is going end up with the gory details in answer to her question...

Steve,

I need you to let this thread get back to the pertinent matter, which is to see if we can help Izzy's fish.

If you are interested in the topic of immunity, innate immunity, and the febrile response, you may read this up on your own term. Then, after that, if you have specific questions you would like to discuss/ask, feel free to PM me.

Thank you.

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Unfortunately you posted what's seemingly an uninformed, or incompletely informed, and -- more outrageous still -- patronizing response after a simple answer to the OP's question.

I have been through Immunology, undergraduate and graduate (have you?), not to say I'm a wiser man for it but I can follow most of the basics. Invertebrate Zoology, too, and the scars are there. Sadly I made the mistake of taking the bait and trying to make sense of the criticism, which I ought not to have done and for which the OP and Koko's are owed a huge apology

So -- I'm sorry, it is my fault, and I apologize. It truly was stupid of me and, again, I apologize.

Never again.

That said, if there is such a thing as professionalism among hobbyist forum moderators, bullying, patronizing, and being condescending to forum members ain't it.

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Izzy, your fish is a cutie pie :wub: I am sorry he's experiencing floaty issues. could you feel the belly and report back if it's soft or bouncy firm?

here is a video I made of how I examine gills and belly, in case you need an example :)

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Unfortunately you posted what's seemingly an uninformed, or incompletely informed, and -- more outrageous still -- patronizing response after a simple answer to the OP's question.

I have been through Immunology, undergraduate and graduate (have you?), not to say I'm a wiser man for it but I can follow most of the basics. Invertebrate Zoology, too, and the scars are there. Sadly I made the mistake of taking the bait and trying to make sense of the criticism, which I ought not to have done and for which the OP and Koko's are owed a huge apology

So -- I'm sorry, it is my fault, and I apologize. It truly was stupid of me and, again, I apologize.

Never again.

That said, if there is such a thing as professionalism among hobbyist forum moderators, bullying, patronizing, and being condescending to forum members ain't it.

Steve,

Once again, I will ask that you leave these postings out of D&D. These threads are to help the OP, not for you to brag about your academic credentials. I have already tried to answer your questions by sending you papers through a PM. If you would like further comments, please kindly either respond to the PM, or start a thread in the general goldfish discussion sub-forum. I am not trying to stop you from discussing immunology; I am trying to direct you to a more appropriate venue.

Thank you for your understanding.

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Can I brag about Alex's credentials? He is an immunologist . . . :o

PhD if I'm not mistaken. :D

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Can I brag about Alex's credentials? He is an immunologist . . . :o

PhD if I'm not mistaken. :D

Alex has mad skills...I bet he plays a mean game of Scrabble!

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Everyone please lets get back to the topic.

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I could have sworn I posted last night. I'm a fisheries scientist, so microbiology is lost on me many times lol.

No change in Waddle's condition. She's got energy and spunk but still on her back. Her belly feels soft. I had to grab my poor little orange ryukin for comparison. His certainly feels much more firm that hers.

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Have we passed the 14 day mark?

Unfortunately, at this point, it does appear that it's not going to be as simple as medication.

What we can try next will require some amount of patience and effort, and again not necessarily giving the yield we want. This is it:


First try to determine if the fish has any parasites and treat for that.
Then put the fish into a 10 or 20 gallon tank and just put in enough water to cover the fish. Use filtration!!! Ammonia MUST be carefully monitored and water changed if the filtration is not removing it. Whisper filters may need to have the "joints" sealed with silicone to keep the siphon working in lowered water .. even the basket on the bottom may need to be removed and a piece of aquarium foam tied on.
Add 1 teaspoon of epsom salts to the water. Do not add more, even if some water needs to be changed. Do not add any regular salt.
Lay and attach a heater along the corner where the sides and floor of the tank meets so that the fish CANNOT end up laying on it and frying their side. Crank the heat up to 84oF. Put an airstone in front so it will move the water up and away from the heater.
Treat any surface sores with antibiotic creme, like Panalog (at the vets) or neosporin.
Do not feed the fish for up to 4 days. Look for expelling of airy, bubbly poops and get them out of the tank.
On the 4th day feed the fish 1/2 of normal rations of high protein (sinking, or soaked and squeezed) food for 4 days. After that, normal amounts of sinking food.
The fish needs to be "walked" while in the tank. This involves placing your hand underneath the fish to get it upright and slowly moving it thru the water to get the fins moving. Do this as many times as possible during the day for about 3 minutes each time until the fish is swimming on its own. This could take up to 3 months if the fish has been floating for a long time.

That's from Ingrid Buxton's site.

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Tomorrow will be the 7 day mark.

So this method is meant to remedy balance issues caused by swim bladder and inner ear? If I sound a little skeptical it's because I'm trying to figure out exactly how this will help.

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I am expecting to read that nothing is for certain, so there are no guarantees. floaty issues are very difficult to correct, if at all, but methods where they have worked in the past, not for all but for some, we can entertain.

yes, it's a long term treatment plan, no, we are not certain that it will work, but, if you've exhausted all other avenues and you are prepared to commit to something like this, then I don't see why it couldn't be tried.

you can turn this into something educational if you like. ie, document the process, your treatment progress and results with every day or every few days.

or, you can choose to not do it at all and continue on with less involved methods. the information is out there for anyone to try :)

I once had a fish named Mr Disabled (named because of his buoyancy issues). I had the opportunity to have him X-rayed and based on the advice of friends, decided to continue treating on their guidance instead. I kicked myself in the foot when I realized that he was not improving many months after conventional treatments and methods. one day, he was so badly off that I chose to euth and autopsy. my findings were that the swim bladder had detached and was moving around in his belly area, eventually settling in his lower belly near his vent. had I carried out with the X-rays, I would have realized what the problem was and treated differently. perhaps continued on with the corrective attempts for much longer, it may have positioned the swim bladder better had I continued rehabilitating him for longer. I have many regrets with this fish that will stay with me forever.

nothing is for certain, we can only try to execute non invasive methods that are available to us from others that have successfully treated, well, this applies to most aquarists who have the time and the patience to carry out the treatment plan that Alex has posted above..

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Tomorrow will be the 7 day mark.

So this method is meant to remedy balance issues caused by swim bladder and inner ear? If I sound a little skeptical it's because I'm trying to figure out exactly how this will help.

Izzy, when it comes to floaty issues, the problem is that without imaging tools such as those that are available at the vets, etc., we actually can only make educated guesses and attempt treatment. Sometimes they work spectacularly, and sometimes they don't work at all.

I understand your skepticism, and I am right there with you.

I'm sorry. I wish I have something more concrete and assured to recommend. :(

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Thank you for your guidance and compassion. After a lot of thought last night, I'm getting on board with this idea. I have most of what I need to set it up except the epsom without additives.

How should I do water changes with this setup? I usually do weekly ones, but should I do them more often? This is probably the thing I am most confused about.

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You will have to do WCs much more often than that, especially when the water levels are low, and ammonia will accumulate fast. Also, I do not think that at water levels that low at the beginning, that you will get any filter to run. I would say change water at least once a day, and see as you begin to raise the water levels.

This is a long term project, and I applaud for attempting to help Waddles. I hope that there will be great results. We are here to provide support any time. :)

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I want to set this up tomorrow afternoon. What should I do about the metro feeding? The plan says to fast.

I think it's fine to stop with the Metro-Meds. I don't think it's doing anything helpful at this point.

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