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Hole in the head/wen. Open Conversation


4prettyfish

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you're welcome hun. just please do not confuse Hole In The Head with Wen Ulcer (AKA Wen Hole) the two are totally non related.

my post above gives you information only on Hole In The Head and is not related to Wen Ulcer. ok?

Again, That's not what I was told when Jet was sick. It was told that Jet had a hole in the head. I said, He has a hole in his wen. I was then told, It's all the same.

Did you read what I wrote about Jet's wen hole. If he didn't have a wen I bet you'd see a hole in his head. I'm thinking the hole started in his head and started eating away his wen, which makes it a hole in his wen.

As hard as it will be for me I'm going to stop and get some sleep.

Cheryl, please go through this search that I did on Jet's thread. At all times, we were calling it an ulcer, NOT a hole in the wen.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1

You titled the thread that way, but I was very careful to call it an ulcer, and not hole in the head.

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I'm not liking the debating back and fourth you and I are doing. This is tiring. I just want to give out info. that I've found out.

I'm not sure I understand, Cheryl. You insisted that you opened this thread because you wanted an open conversation, but now that you are getting this open conversation (albeit mostly with me), you seem to be saying that you don't want that, but rather just tell your point of view, unopposed. That's not how open conversations go, I'm pretty sure. I agree that it's exhausting.

Now, let's go with with this a hole is a hole idea that you have. I wish it were that simple but it's not. Let's use another example...a lump. A lump (on humans or fish) can be a benign or a malignant tumor, can be growth caused by a virus, be a bacteria cyst, by a parasitic cyst, or a combination of several of these. By just calling it a lump, you are missing the boat by several miles. The treatment really depends on the cause.

I have no problem with trying different methods of treatment, but let's try to understand the complexity of the problem first. That's all I ask.

You said, The number one medicine for hole in the head is metronidazole. That's what I have been saying. :)

Yes, Helen did say this, for hexamita-causing hole in the head, not wen ulcers.

I will repeat one more time. For wen ulcers, a number of things could work, including metronidazole, kanamycin, oxolinic acid, Baytril, potassium permanganate, etc. However, if the ulcer is deep enough (such as the case with Jet), sometimes nothing will work. That's the nature of the beast.

I didn't "insist" anything Alex. It is an open conversation. I'm not backing out with an open conversation with you. I feel like you want to debate it with you wanting proof and all. How can you say that I want to say only my point of view. Again, That is not true. You have been telling me all sorts of stuff. I have been reading it all. You have been very matter of fact and that is that.

I know a hole isn't "a hole is a hole".

I can't do this anymore. It's late for me.

Alex, Your last paragraph you said, "For wen ulcers, a ...." Wen Ulcer. Helen had said, Wen Ulcer = aka Wen Hole.

It's a wen hole. not an ulcer.

Goodnight everyone.

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Cheryl, a hole in the wen IS an ulcer and IS NOT the same as hole in the head (HITH).

Hole in the head is a very specific term used to describe an infection caused by the parasite hexamita. Wen ulcers, or holes in the wen, are almost always bacterial in nature, and it ranges from curable to not curable. There are also a lot more medications that can treat, depending on the severity.

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Cheryl, hun. 'wen hole' is less commonly used for the current term for 'wen ulcer'.

the wen is not the head.

wen and head are two separate things.

a wen will grow an Ucler (then progressively open into a hole as the Ulcer dissolves the wen around it)

a head will grow a Hole (from the beginning)

Wen hole/ulcer is not Hole in the head.

might this be confusing to you, hun?

Edited by Helen
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Okay Cheryl, it's been a couple of hours but I have read through your D&D thread. I think there are quite a few themes going on in this thread. I wanted to address a few as an impartial bystander.

1. I understand how you came to the idea about parasites and deficiencies. I see that parasites was mentioned twice in Jet's thread. Once in regards to the odd chewing and once in regards to bottom sitting. Goldfish deal with parasites on their own mostly, prazi treatments reduce numbers to a manageable level so they can heal themselves. I saw all those beautiful videos of Jet and if he did have parasites, they weren't at a level that his body couldn't handle or there would be outward signs.

2. I am unsure if you mean to come across this way but it sounds like you think the mods misdiagnosed your fish and that you are unhappy with how your case was handled. I hope this is not the case but if it is, please pm koko or TD about it. In regards to that, you did not fail and this was not your fault. :hug

3. I'm not sure if you know this about Alex but he has a scientific background and thank goodness that he does. He takes a very clinical approach to every discussion about goldfish diseases. Alex is very matter of fact about these things, please don't think he is trying to imply any negative tone. He cares a lot about fish, he knows when the research is sound. The reason why he is responding so much over others is because he has both first hand experience and done research on the matter.

There also seems to be an issue about mislabelling terms. It is hard to have an open conversation when we are not talking about the same thing. I'm sure this will all get sorted soon, I know you are still mourning your loss, please understand that I only hope to bring points to focus so that there can be understanding and peace.

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Ok Im going to say this once and only once......

EVERYONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND A BREAK HERE!!

This is insane... we are now arguing. Not talking and hun you wanted an open discussion this is what happens.. Other than that your going to be going around in circles with the fact that What it is is what it is...

I feel like we are beating a dead horse .... this is insane and a famly forum why are we getting all puffed up about this.

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Cheryl, a hole in the wen IS an ulcer and IS NOT the same as hole in the head (HITH).

Hole in the head is a very specific term used to describe an infection caused by the parasite hexamita. Wen ulcers, or holes in the wen, are almost always bacterial in nature, and it ranges from curable to not curable. There are also a lot more medications that can treat, depending on the severity.

Hi Alex, Okay...You and Helen are saying a hole in the wen is also called an ulcer. I understand now. Your second sentence, I agree with that from what I've read. Your last sentence, There are a lot more medications that can treat, depending on the severity. Okay, I understand and that's why I was suggesting the two medications that I've seen talk about. This is what I have been trying to say. :)

Cheryl, hun. 'wen hole' is less commonly used for the current term for 'wen ulcer'.

the wen is not the head.

wen and head are two separate things.

a wen will grow an Ucler (then progressively open into a hole as the Ulcer dissolves the wen around it)

a head will grow a Hole (from the beginning)

Wen hole/ulcer is not Hole in the head.

might this be confusing to you, hun?

Thank you Helen. Prior to Jet's death and in the beginning of his treatments I was confused with some of these words. I know a wen and head are two separate things. I didn't understand/know that a wen will grow an Ulcer and eventually open into a hole. I know a head will grow a hole in the beginning.

I've said this before though....I'm wondering if Jet had a hole in his head but of course I didn't know because he had a wen. He was sick with this disease hith, with the parasites and his wen developed a hole from lack of nutrients. This is my thinking.

But I don't mean to keep talking about Jet. My purpose for this topic was to think of a new way perhaps to save other fish. I know I can't be the only person that gets on the internet to try to learn more stuff. That's why I came on Koko's site along with seeing posts of others fish and if I needed help there is a d&d section.

Okay Cheryl, it's been a couple of hours but I have read through your D&D thread. I think there are quite a few themes going on in this thread. I wanted to address a few as an impartial bystander.

1. I understand how you came to the idea about parasites and deficiencies. I see that parasites was mentioned twice in Jet's thread. Once in regards to the odd chewing and once in regards to bottom sitting. Goldfish deal with parasites on their own mostly, prazi treatments reduce numbers to a manageable level so they can heal themselves. I saw all those beautiful videos of Jet and if he did have parasites, they weren't at a level that his body couldn't handle or there would be outward signs.

2. I am unsure if you mean to come across this way but it sounds like you think the mods misdiagnosed your fish and that you are unhappy with how your case was handled. I hope this is not the case but if it is, please pm koko or TD about it. In regards to that, you did not fail and this was not your fault. :hug

3. I'm not sure if you know this about Alex but he has a scientific background and thank goodness that he does. He takes a very clinical approach to every discussion about goldfish diseases. Alex is very matter of fact about these things, please don't think he is trying to imply any negative tone. He cares a lot about fish, he knows when the research is sound. The reason why he is responding so much over others is because he has both first hand experience and done research on the matter.

There also seems to be an issue about mislabelling terms. It is hard to have an open conversation when we are not talking about the same thing. I'm sure this will all get sorted soon, I know you are still mourning your loss, please understand that I only hope to bring points to focus so that there can be understanding and peace.

Thank you for your post. I want to get this out of the way first. Your line 2. I by no means blame anyone here for Jet's death. I'm sorry you read it that way. Didn't you see my posts that I couldn't have done what I did without the help I received from here. I would have been at a total loss without Helen's guidance and Alex's help. I am not unhappy with how my case on Jet was handled. I've never once said that I was. I feel blessed that I received so much help from here. With that said, I do not need to pm Koko about anything negative. :)
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If possible - and in the service of discussing future treatment for future fish who come here presenting like Jet - is the surgery primarily to remove infected tissue or to facilitate the uptake of medicine (by removing tissue barriers)?

It would seem that both are legitimate reasons to perform wen surgery.

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I don't have much to add but I'd like to say that this thread has been an interesting read and it's very admirable that you love Jet enough to continue your learning and try to find answers after his passing. :grouphug Many hugs to you!

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Okay Cheryl, it's been a couple of hours but I have read through your D&D thread. I think there are quite a few themes going on in this thread. I wanted to address a few as an impartial bystander.

1. I understand how you came to the idea about parasites and deficiencies. I see that parasites was mentioned twice in Jet's thread. Once in regards to the odd chewing and once in regards to bottom sitting. Goldfish deal with parasites on their own mostly, prazi treatments reduce numbers to a manageable level so they can heal themselves. I saw all those beautiful videos of Jet and if he did have parasites, they weren't at a level that his body couldn't handle or there would be outward signs.

2. I am unsure if you mean to come across this way but it sounds like you think the mods misdiagnosed your fish and that you are unhappy with how your case was handled. I hope this is not the case but if it is, please pm koko or TD about it. In regards to that, you did not fail and this was not your fault. :hug

3. I'm not sure if you know this about Alex but he has a scientific background and thank goodness that he does. He takes a very clinical approach to every discussion about goldfish diseases. Alex is very matter of fact about these things, please don't think he is trying to imply any negative tone. He cares a lot about fish, he knows when the research is sound. The reason why he is responding so much over others is because he has both first hand experience and done research on the matter.

There also seems to be an issue about mislabelling terms. It is hard to have an open conversation when we are not talking about the same thing. I'm sure this will all get sorted soon, I know you are still mourning your loss, please understand that I only hope to bring points to focus so that there can be understanding and peace.

Regarding your number 3. No, I don't know Alex's profession. I had asked though. I understand why he is responding a lot because he has experience and am assuming he has done research as you had said on the matter. I get that. I too am doing research. That is part of learning by us doing research. I can now say that I've had a little experience with this now because of Jet. We all have to start at the beginning and work our experience level up. I'm at the bottom but am a quick learner. Where do you think others have learned stuff from? Some from books and the internet and asking questions. Wouldn't you agree Alex with this?

I am fine and am at peace. I am okay with Jet's death. He isn't suffering anymore. Of course I miss him but he's okay now.

I appreciate your post. Thank you. I said this before and again, I am not upset with anyone. I said earlier in my posts that I consider Alex and Helen a friend. Alex and Helen have both emailed me in the past talking about this or that. I hope this thread doesn't change our relationship. Alex even said he doesn't treat friends differently in topics. (or, however you posted that :) )

Ok Im going to say this once and only once......

EVERYONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND A BREAK HERE!!

This is insane... we are now arguing. Not talking and hun you wanted an open discussion this is what happens.. Other than that your going to be going around in circles with the fact that What it is is what it is...

I feel like we are beating a dead horse .... this is insane and a famly forum why are we getting all puffed up about this.

I'm sorry Koko if your upset with this. I'm okay and not puffed up though. I can't speak for others but I'm not angry from posts I was getting tired.

I wanted to talk about this because I've noticed more fish are coming down with this disease and not doing well. Just prior to Jet's case someone lost a fish with the same problem here. My intentions are meant well here. I just think it needs to be talked about. There might not be a lot of people chiming in but there are a lot of members here reading this topic. Just look at the number of views in such a short time. (364) Awareness is being addressed. Thank you. :)

Edited by 4prettyfish
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If possible - and in the service of discussing future treatment for future fish who come here presenting like Jet - is the surgery primarily to remove infected tissue or to facilitate the uptake of medicine (by removing tissue barriers)?

It would seem that both are legitimate reasons to perform wen surgery.

To my understanding the surgery was to remove the infected tissue. As in Jet's case we didn't do the surgery so I could then put/get medicine into his hole. Medicine in his hole was suggested after the fact when he wasn't doing good. It was another attempt/suggestion to try and see if that would work.

But from what I have learned is the infected area would have fallen off eventually which equals the surgery didn't need to be done. (again, let me stress..I felt like I did the best for Jet then. I don't have any regrets but I don't believe I would do surgery on a fish with a wen again.)

I don't have much to add but I'd like to say that this thread has been an interesting read and it's very admirable that you love Jet enough to continue your learning and try to find answers after his passing. :grouphug Many hugs to you!

Thank you. That means a lot to me. I appreciate your comments so much. I don't think I'm necessarily trying to find answers on Jet's passing, as in why did he pass away even though the conversations are talking about him. But yes, I am learning more and am suggesting trying other meds. Thank you again. I appreciate your hug. :):hug

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Pardon me for being blunt, Cheryl, but I think that internet sources are dubious at best, and as such they led you to the conclusion that "a hole is a hole."

In preparing to help, I and others on the mod team have bought numerous books on fish diseases, and it is these, along with years of experience that we rely on. I absolutely understand that everyone should do their own research. I recommend that perhaps you are a bit more selective with your readings before making recommendations. So far, you've admitted to much confusion, and I don't think that confusion is the place to be make suggestions.

While we are in the business of talking about other fish with wen ulcers, please note the very important thread of LouiseAnn, where she actually consulted a vet. Note that nitrofuracin and metronidazole are nowhere on the table, but rather a very strong broad spectrum antibiotic. You may think that we are all wrong here, but perhaps the vet's judgment might mean something to you.

Your willingness to help is so admirable.

If possible - and in the service of discussing future treatment for future fish who come here presenting like Jet - is the surgery primarily to remove infected tissue or to facilitate the uptake of medicine (by removing tissue barriers)?

It would seem that both are legitimate reasons to perform wen surgery.

Suzanne, I would like to think that it is both. Removing infected tissue is a big goal, and because the wen is not very well vascularized, opening it up so that you can deliver the meds to all the infected issues is the goal.
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Alex, Like Koko had somewhat said. We are going in circles. I am not going to repeat myself again as in regards to your hole is a hole comment or the experiences you have over me. I already addressed all of that. I don't know why you are doing this to me.

I bet you can't tell me that you've never gone on other sites and have tried to find answers to fish related problems/questions before in the past and present. Come on, give me a break. I have not admitted "to much confusion". I said I was confused. I believe I had even said that in my introduction of my thread with the words ulcer, hexamita, and hole in the head. I don't understand why you are picking at every little thing I am saying. Do you do this to other people? I am not selective with my readings. I already have said the answer to this also. I'd appreciate it very much for you to stop with the "picking a part every word" I have to say. :(

I have not once mentioned Louise on this thread. You have twice now. !!

Your answer to Susanne. I said the same thing but worded it differently.

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Cheryl, as I said from the very beginning, if you wish to have an open conversation, then let's have an open conversation. If it means exhaustively having to re-address a point several times to ensure that it is not being lost among the rest, then I will do it.

I am not doing anything to you, Cheryl. I have no quarrel with you, but I am indeed responding to the open conversation. If there is something with which I feel should be addressed and debated, I will do so.

I CAN indeed tell you that I don't frequent other internet fish forums. I have enjoyed many discussions with mods from the GAB, but that forum is now extinct. I have also initiated private conversations with other goldfish breeders. So, I do mean exactly what I said. I consider most internet sources to be dubious, and since I am lucky enough to have both amazing book and people with many decades of experience to ask, I don't have to go to sources that are questionable. :)

I have also spent a lot of time reading the archives of this forum, and comparing the knowledge here with my other sources. After all, this forum has been here the longest, and has had some incredibly knowledgable people.

I appreciate your starting this thread, because it allows me the opportunity to address these issues. Thank you.

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I'm all for open conversations Alex. That was the purpose for my thread. But not the dissecting of my words from you.

Your telling me if you have to re-address a point you will do it. Your also telling me that your not doing anything to me. And your telling me that if there is something that you feel should be addressed and debated you will do so. It sounds like to me that you are wanting and having the last words on everything Alex. Do you know what your sounding like? It's not good. I'm a good person with a good heart that had every intention for this to be a great thread for those members who might be interested in this thread.

My post in number 61 I had answered a question and thanked someone. Then the next post you just started directing stuff at me once again.

Thank you everyone that has had an interest in this topic/thread. I appreciate you reading it.

You can go ahead and have the last word in this thread now Alex. You already said you'll do what you want.

Edited by 4prettyfish
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Cheryl, you are now attacking me personally, and I will thank you to cease immediately. I have not attacked you, and have praised you throughout. Let us not make this personal, because it is both unbecoming, and against the rules. Good people don't start attacking other people personally and make insinuations, and so we shall see if you live up to your claim of being a good person.

I am sorry that the open conversation did not go your way, and that clarifications are perceived to be word twisting.

It is always a painful thing to lose a pet, and there is always that lingering question of whether one could have done differently to save our beloved friend. As I've shared with you in the past, I love orandas, but it is undeniable that they are prone to wen issues. Most of the time, these issues don't even need intervention, and when intervention was needed, we in the US are lucky to have a great many treatment choices. Despite that, sometimes it's just not meant to be. I've successfully treated more than a few fish with wen issues, and I've lost some much loved ones after some tough fights. I would like to think that I have learned a few things along the way on how to minimize such things, but despite it all, I could not dare claim to have a foolproof solution. In so many ways, wen issues are even tougher than dropsy, and I fervently hope that one day we will have a much better handle on things. This discussion alone shows that there is still a lot for us to cover and learn.

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