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Hole in the head/wen. Open Conversation


4prettyfish

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I've seen the med oxolinic acid mentioned also with the metronidazole. Have you used more than one med to treat Puff or Hashi? I didn't know all the reason behind Puff's passing. I just remember I was very sad for him and you. He was one of the first Oranda's that Taylor and I have seen on youtube and just thought, How gorgeous your fish are.

Hi Cheryl,

Perhaps you missed my posts earlier where I had indicated the long list of things that have been tried, by me, and most of these also by Jess. Oxolinic acid is listed as one of those, which was why when I made the recommendation to you to use it, I knew exactly where you can get it from, since this medication is not particularly ubiquitous. This medication was one of the very first that I tried, as well as Metro-Meds, which contains plenty of metronidazole. I also have metro powder, which I have also tried. I also did Baytril injections.

I'm sure Jess will answer you as well, when she sees your question.

I would also like to point out that the reason why I, after conversations with Jeff, recommended surgery. This is because we saw how ineffective non-surgical methods were working, as well as Jeff's experience looking into Asian forums, as well as his discussions with Thai oranda breeders, who have experience working with quite a few more fish than we do.

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Please read the information that is right here on Koko's. Go to goldfish diseases and click onto hole in the head. It actually says here that the cause for hole in the head is unclear but at one time the parasite hexamita was thought always to be responsible, but in later years nutritional deficiencies are thought to be more common causes. It does give other reasons also. That gave all sorts of information.

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I've seen the med oxolinic acid mentioned also with the metronidazole. Have you used more than one med to treat Puff or Hashi? I didn't know all the reason behind Puff's passing. I just remember I was very sad for him and you. He was one of the first Oranda's that Taylor and I have seen on youtube and just thought, How gorgeous your fish are.

Hi Cheryl,

Perhaps you missed my posts earlier where I had indicated the long list of things that have been tried, by me, and most of these also by Jess. Oxolinic acid is listed as one of those, which was why when I made the recommendation to you to use it, I knew exactly where you can get it from, since this medication is not particularly ubiquitous. This medication was one of the very first that I tried, as well as Metro-Meds, which contains plenty of metronidazole. I also have metro powder, which I have also tried. I also did Baytril injections.

I'm sure Jess will answer you as well, when she sees your question.

I would also like to point out that the reason why I, after conversations with Jeff, recommended surgery. This is because we saw how ineffective non-surgical methods were working, as well as Jeff's experience looking into Asian forums, as well as his discussions with Thai oranda breeders, who have experience working with quite a few more fish than we do.

I did not see any post regarding any of the above from you Alex regarding trying meds. If you want to direct me I'd be more than happy to read it. I'd like to share with anyone the sites that I've read on. It's not a lot but it gave me info. Again, I just thought this would be a way to open up communication for us that have a sick fish with a hole in the head. From what you have said Alex you have tried many methods and treatments. I understand that. I only had Jet. Has there been a success story at all? Not that I'm aware of. It just seems like I've seen a lot of posts about members here having a fish with a hole in the head. I just wanted to try to help by perhaps re-thinking all of this. I already said I don't know anything about all these medications and all. I'm just the girl that started an open "talk". There has to be another way besides surgery. I do not regret what I did. I was all for it. I've had conversations with Helen through Skype. I went to Walmart and bought everything that I needed for my fish. It didn't work for him. I can't see a young child trying to do this but I want to see if there is another way to save a fish. That's all.

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Please read the information that is right here on Koko's. Go to goldfish diseases and click onto hole in the head. It actually says here that the cause for hole in the head is unclear but at one time the parasite hexamita was thought always to be responsible, but in later years nutritional deficiencies are thought to be more common causes. It does give other reasons also. That gave all sorts of information.

This is absolutely true. Here is actually the description from the page

Small holes appear in the fish's body, usually in the head region. These may gradually develop into tubular eruptions with cream-colored or yellow strings of mucus trailing from them. Fish are lethargic, stop eating and may develop a hollow-bellied appearance. Faeces may become pale and stringy. Lesions may also develop at base of fins and along lateral line, and fins and skin may also erode, body may become milky in appearance and slime coat begins to come off in strands.

Hole in the head, however, is quite different from wen ulcers. As I pointed out in my initial post, one of the big distinguishing factors of the two types are the HITH is not bloody, while wen ulcers are.

I actually have quite seen a case of HITH in a goldfish in quite some time. That's also because this manifestation of the disease more often occurs in cichlids, while hexamita infections of goldfish presents a bit differently.

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If I can say this for anyone who is interested in symptoms of what I think is hole in the head seeing Jet had it but I didn't know at first. He was bottom sitting a lot. Not interested in other fish. A loner. He did have an appetite at first though. He liked to hide in the back behind a plant or in the corner.

The last several hours of his life. :) I want to cry now.

He went down hill fast. Jet stopped eating.

He was on his side swimming a little bit. He was on his side a lot and couldn't swim. His color seemed to change to dull. The current was swishing him around even though I had baffled it. His eyes looked blank. I think he lost all his slime coat. I've never seen anything like this before but the water got all bubbly and icky looking.

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I did not see any post regarding any of the above from you Alex regarding trying meds. If you want to direct me I'd be more than happy to read it. I'd like to share with anyone the sites that I've read on. It's not a lot but it gave me info. Again, I just thought this would be a way to open up communication for us that have a sick fish with a hole in the head. From what you have said Alex you have tried many methods and treatments. I understand that. I only had Jet. Has there been a success story at all? Not that I'm aware of. It just seems like I've seen a lot of posts about members here having a fish with a hole in the head. I just wanted to try to help by perhaps re-thinking all of this. I already said I don't know anything about all these medications and all. I'm just the girl that started an open "talk". There has to be another way besides surgery. I do not regret what I did. I was all for it. I've had conversations with Helen through Skype. I went to Walmart and bought everything that I needed for my fish. It didn't work for him. I can't see a young child trying to do this but I want to see if there is another way to save a fish. That's all.

This is from post #3,

here is very little information published in books on treatments, although by now, from people's experience, these are almost always bacterial in nature, and as such, can be treated with antibiotics. Depending on the severity and the type (here we don't know which really, unless we have a vet test), a number of medications, including Medi-Gold, Metro-Meds, kanamycin, oxolinic acid, baytril, etc. can work. I've used them all, and they have worked, or not, or temporarily worked, depending on the fish and the ulcer.

Now, to address the issues you have brought up, since I think quite a bit of it was missed...

1. Success. Is there success? Of course! More often than not, a 10 day course of Medi-Gold does the trick, BUT it depends greatly on the ulcer type and size. Even with an ulcer such as Jet had, the course of action I would have recommended would still be MGs. The surgery is meant to increase the chances of success. The surgery was not meant to be the only path of success. Having said that, with deep wen ulcers, it was not a guarantee, and that's why I was very straight-forward with you about this.

2. I can't see a young child performing surgery either, and it would be incredibly irresponsible of us to recommend doing so. That's why the standard course of action has always been antibiotic treatments, AND if the person is willing (parents in case it's a child), we recommend the additional step of surgery.

3. Lastly, it really is important that we make a careful distinction between hole in the head, which describes an infection by the protozoan parasite hexamita, and a bloody hold in the wen, which describes a wen ulcer, caused primarily by bacteria. If we are to have any meaningful conversation, that distinction has to be made first.

I am not mad at you, but I think that my frustration is palpable. There is a lot of information about there, and quite a bit of it is junk.

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Steve, just as I asked Cheryl, I will also ask you, do you really think that goldfish in the US are really in danger of nutrient deficiencies?

No one has ever questioned that nutritional deficiencies can exacerbate all sorts of health problems, but I don't think that any goldfish (certain none belonging to anyone on this illustrious forum) are suffering from deficiencies in nutrition. There is great danger of nutrient overload yes.

One must also not forget the fact that if there are internal parasites at work, you can see some gross evidence of this, including emaciation, and other signs of wasting, or nutrients being diverted elsewhere. In the case of hexamita, the gross clinical signs are abdominal swelling, popeye, and wasting. In the case of these wen ulcers, I have yet to see evidence of such wasting. Jet was a rather robust looking oranda with a robust wen.

Thinking outside the box is something which we should all strive to do, but we have to develop a context. You can't argue an internal parasite and nutritional deficiencies when there are absolutely no signs. Certainly, if the deficiencies are severe enough that it's having an overall health impairment, you should at least see some signs, no?

Jet was a good size fish but he did lose his appetite the last couple of days I believe and wasn't eating. He didn't have a big belly. Perhaps I don't know what a big or small wasted belly is. I think over time he would have wasted away if in fact he had parasites that were eating away at him and that's why he had the hole in his wen. You say that argument can't be made regarding internal parasite and nutritional deficiencies when there are no signs. I'm not asking to argue the case but to think, Why not? Does anyone know this for a fact that it's not? You wanted a fact where it shows it is.

It's getting late here and I have to get up early. I appreciate the open conversation. In the beginning I felt like you were kind of getting after me Alex and it upset me a lot. Like I had said, I don't want anyone to be upset with me and I don't want to upset anyone that has a sick fish with this disease to be reading this. From what I gather nothing concrete has healed a fish with hole in the head on this forum and it seems like different methods have been tried. Even to the extreme of surgery and that unfortunately wasn't successful either.

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Goodnight everyone. I'll have to get back on your current posts tomorrow sometime Alex and reply back.

By all means keep the conversation going members. I wasn't planning on talking as much but wanted to hear what others had to say.

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Cheryl,

I have no quarrels with you, or anyone on this forum for that matter. If anything, I think very well of you.

Having said that, when it comes to these open discussions, I will always push for critical thinking, whether you are my best friend or someone I don't know. That's the nature of these talks. I am not here to favor anyone.

Here are my responses to the latest things you've brought up.

- There is a difference between wasting away, and loss of appetite and bottom sitting. Wasting away is when the fish eats, but is not gaining weight and may be losing weight. Losing appetite and bottom sitting are two things that occur with a lot of situations, and really just tells you that the fish is not feeling well at all.

- Not eating after a period of time will definitely leading to wasting away and weight loss. No internal parasite needs to be invoked.

- I absolutely have no problems with parasite infections leading to other complications. I would like for you to show me a sign of parasite infection. While there is always the possibility of a "silent" infection without much by ways of symptoms, hexamita is not one of those types of infections, I can assure you. This infection is one with rather high mortality. If you are right, you will be seeing mortality in your other fish, and sooner rather than later.

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:) Hi Helen,

I was signing off and saw you on here. I hope you don't mind this conversation with my topic/thread. I respect you a lot just like Alex. Like the beginning of my topic I wanted input with Mods, Helpers, other owners of Oranda's, and anyone interested in this topic.

Okay, really going now. My mom is being discharged from hospital tomorrow hopefully. She had a pace maker put in her on Sunday.

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I would love some evidence of this. Where do you get that parasites from the belly will cause hole in the head?

You and Helen both have thoughts that this is parasite related. I would love it if it's true. Jess and I have both used metronidazole, and much good that did us.

actually Alex, I currently am learning through kokos re wen ulcers, since I have repeatedly stated that I know little to zero about them.. since I have not personally experienced a wen ulcer case with any of my community..

actually, I lie, one of my fish showed a very mild purple/red hue on her wen once and it was through your instruction that I just WC daily & twice daily and it should just go away.. and it did, so thank you for your wonderful advice, for us, it worked fine :)

since we are in the discussion, I will remind you that what we spoke of and you handed down the information which did help to educate me somewhat is that wen ulcers and body ulcers are in fact different.

I entertained and approached you about the possibility if a wen ulcer can be caused by similar influences that the body ulcer is caused by. that being, a secondary bacteria infection which can be caused by the primary source being 'parasites'. you told me 'that's not possible due to the fact that the wen is not able to be penetrated by parasites such as flukes and worms'. so, I learned that the two, wen and body ulcers, although they appear similar, are in fact quite different.

as far as treatments go, this is where I have absolutely zero experience in (and repeatedly stated in all wen ulcer threads that I was invited in to, more so to assist with surgical procedures), I cannot give guidance.

our good friend Steve, from Goldfish Connection, has the following to say about Ulcers - wen & body.

https://www.goldfishconnection.com/articles/details.php?articleId=131&parentId=12

so, I did not 'have' thoughts that this is the case, I asked a friend, with first hand experience in the matter for clarification as to wether there exists the possibility that the two can be related. the end result is 'no'.

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:) Hi Helen,

I was signing off and saw you on here. I hope you don't mind this conversation with my topic/thread. I respect you a lot just like Alex. Like the beginning of my topic I wanted input with Mods, Helpers, other owners of Oranda's, and anyone interested in this topic.

Okay, really going now. My mom is being discharged from hospital tomorrow hopefully. She had a pace maker put in her on Sunday.

hugs to 'mum'! I hope she recovers well. my sister had a pace maker in, short term. it helped her through her health problems at the time :)

I have no issues with your topic hun, we're all here to learn something good :)

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In my limited experience so far it really depends on the nature of the ulcer that is being treated. It is difficult with dark colored fish like Jet (and Puff who also had significant and untreatable wen issues) because of the coloring we are less apt to notice the trouble brewing until the issue is quite extensive. The ulcer may also simply start deep within the wen and not be noticeable until the inflammation is close to the surface. At this point, in my (again limited) experience medications are not really a viable option.

However, for a small ulcer that is isolated to the surface of the tissue this can be more easily treated, although even if one is treated it does appear to be a recurrent issue that crops up from time to time. I believe medigold (specifically the kanamycin) is more effective than metro at treating these sort of treatable ulcers.

Edie has never (knock on wood) had any wen issues, but Hashi has had spots crop up from time to time. I typically take a wait and see approach because his immune system seems to be able to handle them fine and I think I have enough knowledge at this point to determine when I would need to treat. With Puff his wen issues were ongoing despite multiple rounds of medications including metro, then oxolinic acid, then medigold. The ulcers would appear to get better but then come back worse than ever. I believe he was a fish that surgery probably would have been the best option for, but he also had so many other issues going on at that time that I doubt he would have been able to recover from surgery. He was sick for a good year before I finally had to let him go.

Jess, When you say the ulcer might be deep in the wen are you talking about the "hole"? Jet had a hole in his wen. I wonder if the wen was gone I'd see a hole in his head also. Is the hole that deep? Other fish that don't have wens but have a hole in the head is it all the same with a wen fish? I'm thinking yes. right?!!

I've seen the med oxolinic acid mentioned also with the metronidazole. Have you used more than one med to treat Puff or Hashi? I didn't know all the reason behind Puff's passing. I just remember I was very sad for him and you. He was one of the first Oranda's that Taylor and I have seen on youtube and just thought, How gorgeous your fish are.

So even though there was a hole in the wen, this hole was accompanied by red inflamed ulceration. The tissue that you removed was inflamed and infected tissue. This inflammation is (as Alex demonstrated in the pics earlier) indicative of bacterial related ulceration regardless if there is a visual hole or not. Think about a cut on your hand, when bacteria gets in there the surrounding tissues become red swollen and inflamed. With hole in head, you do not see this sort of inflammation accompany the holes.

I've used oxolinic acid with puff and found it to be the most ineffective med I tried. I think it has potential to be useful, but only if the tissue we are concerned with is exposed enough for a water borne medication to penetrate. The issue with wen tissue is that it is thick tissue without significant blood flow to it, thus it makes it difficult to get meds to the affected area.

At this time its my belief that medigold is the best course for treatable ulcers, and surgery being the option for more extensive ulcers.

As Alex said there have been cases on the forum in which antibiotic foods have been successful, but because of the nature of the wen tissue and the fact that people often do not notice underlying wen issues in the early stages, they remain difficult to treat, particularly if the fish has any other health concerns that might lower a normal immune system response.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Ok guys.. Lets all take a nice DEEP breath.... Ok and do it again...

Alright. now we are all friends here, so lets just try and remember that we can all get frustrated when we are trying to explain things to each other, typed words are different than spoken so you dont know the tone of ones typing... So lets use smiles when we can....

I have only had this problem once and I would like to say if its wens then it can effect all fish that have wens. Dont know why Orandas seem to get the most of this issue but they do... thats all I have to say....

:)

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So, given what has been said, is it safe to say Jet's coloring perhaps worked against an early diagnosis (because his dark pigment obscured the early red inflammation that might have been more easily seen on a lighter colored fish)?

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So, given what has been said, is it safe to say Jet's coloring perhaps worked against an early diagnosis (because his dark pigment obscured the early red inflammation that might have been more easily seen on a lighter colored fish)?

This is exactly it, Susanne!

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I've read the posts since I have left last night and want to say thank you for your input. This is what I want. To have a discussion.

I guess I am the only one thinking differently though with the exception of Steve seeing what I was thinking and trying to explain.

I don't believe Jet had a wen ulcer. He had a Hole in the head/wen. From my understanding, a wen hole or head hole is all the same. An ulcer is different. I'm talking about fish that have a hole in the head/wen. I have seen other fish on the internet that do not have a wen with a hole in the head. I believe that under Jet's wen he would also have a hole in the head. Again, the photo's that Alex had posted,... Jet didn't have the so called "bloody" wen. He wasn't bleeding. I don't think it was inflamed also. I believe he didn't have an ulcer. And I have to disagree with Susanne and Alex as in not catching this earlier because of Jet's dark color. I think the disease is a silent one in the beginning. And it's deadly unless you can catch it early. I can't say much for Jet because he was sick when I first got him. I look back on it all now and I wrote it off with him being qt'd and a new fish. He was eating fine. But he was always a little off and bottom sitting a lot. It was until it was too late and the hole in the head had progressed more with the symptoms that he had. I understand the symptoms could mean other stuff also. I get that. But in this particular case those were Jet's symptoms for hole in the head prior to his death from what I had written earlier.

I've asked twice if I can post sites here for info that I've read. No response and I understand if I can't because this is on Koko's forum. PM me if you want the sites I've been looking at. I will say that I've seen two different meds being taken at the same time on an internet site. Metronidazole and Nitrofuracin. I've also seen Metronidazole and Furan 2. I've seen the injection one for three days I believe that someone here had mentioned. From what I've seen that was suggested years ago.

Again, here on Koko's site it is even mentioned about the nutrients and parasites. That particular comment I felt like it was kind of brushed off.

I wish others would have an open mind about parasites eating in the stomach of a fish and taking out the nutrients. Without those nutrients the wen develops a hole. But the parasites are already eating away at the fish's head. You see this in Oscars. On fish with wen's we don't see the hole in the head until it's too late. The hole in the wen is then seen by us owners. And now by this time the fish is showing other signs/symptoms.

tithra had mentioned the theory of us cutting our hand and the signs of it. I understand what she was saying. But,We don't cut out our sore do we? We let it heal. And if our sore is going to scab over it will and most likely fall off or rub off. I now think that wen surgery is not needed for hole in the head. From my understanding the wen is dead like our hair. Right? If the wen is infected I think the bad stuff will fall off. Maybe even take a tweezer and help it a bit. But I don't think sugery is needed.

Helen had said many times that she wasn't familiar with wens but she is familiar with surgery. (and yes she is. very well in deed. she also kept me calm.) She has done remarkable surgeries with her own fish but they were not Hole in the head surgeries. The reason why Helen is asked to help is because she has done surgeries on fish. I think fish with ulcers that need to be removed she has that nailed. :) ) I'm learning with the best of everyone else. I don't think surgery is needed now. And with all that said, Would I change anything about what I did to Jet? No. Not a thing. Helen stood by me in a time of crisis. But I want us to think differently now. Outside the box.

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Cheryl,

The only thing I can say is this. When a number of people who HAVE had experience in the area, including Jeff, concluded the same thing, I would give it a lot of credence.

I will be forthright, since you want an open discussion. You are mistaken. Hole in the head, and hole in the wen are two different things. However, I won't be trying to convince you otherwise. Jet did have a bloody wen, and the entire mod team had a running discussion in the back, and Helen and I had continuous conversations about this. I understand that you are trying to figure out ways to save future fish, and that's completely respectable and highly encouraged. But please put this in perspective. You've had exactly ONE experience, and you are ignoring what we have been saying. I've tried metro-based treatments, along with even stronger than the furans that you are talking about, AND other antiparasites, and it did not accomplish anything.

I hope that you will never have to experience another episode of wen issues, but perhaps if this ever happens, and that you've tried out what you wanted, you will see that I am not dismissing what you are saying. I've tried it, and it doesn't work.

Having said all this, I absolute defend your right to do whatever you wish to your fish, because you are trying to save them.

Best of luck!

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hun, you will need to check with koko first, the links that you would like to post. on her approval, go right ahead :)

there are a few things that I want to clear my mind on with you.

1. jet was a relatively new (large) Oranda. without knowing his history, prior to your care, we know none of what he's been exposed to. fish handle everything differently. some more sensitive than others.

2. in an established community of (some for many years and I do mean a closed system) Oranda or other fish with wens, these fish still manage to still be targets for wen ulcers. the only way possible is purely from bacterial influence.. either the owner has dropped their game with their maintenance routine or something is just not right with the water source.

3. HITH/LLD/FHLLE or MHLLE

HITH - Hole In The Head disease

LLD - Lateral Line Disease

FHLLE - FreshWater (HITH) Lateral Line Erosion

MHLLE - Marine (HITH) Lateral Line Erosion

all these are related to Hole In The Head diseases. they do not present ulcerated purple/pink hues or dissolved tissues that ulcers do. some fine examples that Alex posted to you earlier.

I do not have experience with wen ulcers, but I do have experience with body ulcers. I also have experience with HITH freshwater which comes hand in hand with LLD.. basically, fine pin prick holes in the head appear first, too fine to notice... then you start getting the flair up with the Lateral Line points either on one side or both sides of the fish, depending on how long it takes the Aquarist to notice the symptoms, and then, if they ever do.

symptoms for HITH is lethargy, loss of appetite, anorexia, (possible bleed outs through gills and.or vent) and then certain death. but not at any one given stage do these holes in the head present the way an ulcer does. they do not become discoloured or even bleed. it's like taking a hole punch to a paper.. or stabbing the flesh of an orange with a sewing needle. the holes are very defined and there is no flair up, no bleeding.

the holes, before opening, show a white pasty matter, slightly protruded (not flush to the dermis). days follow and then they open, a thread like white puss might come out of it which is carrying very fine, microscopic parasites. the holes then begin to grow in size and that's when they may become infected with bacteria or fungi.

but prior to all this external display.. what happens inside the fish can be quite traumatic, ie, this is why the fish shows signs of anorexia, lethargy and loss of appetite. the parasites are affecting it's gall bladder, kidneys, spleen and associated vascularture. it's only in later stages that we begin to see the external signs of HITH.

I am very confident that Jet did not suffer from HITH. and whilst I have all the experience with this, I have to have the same faith in those who have experienced at length and multiple times, those here who have all the experience with wen ulcers or ulcers in general.

although these HITH related mentions that I make all sound fatal (and they can very well be).. if you are able to see the HITH beginning from the pin prick holes on the head or notice the Lateral Line Erosion forming, this is still considered later early stages and you can still manage to turn things around with the appropriate medicines... the #1 medicine for HITH is Metronidazole.

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Hi Alex, I know it sounds strange for me, a person that only came on here a year ago and that has had only one fish die on me with a hole in the head problem, and trying to talk about this and suggest something. But I'm not a total stranger here that came on here yesterday. I think I'm somewhat known here now, a little. I've noted I have no knowledge in this area except for what I did over the last week by searching and reading. Does that warrant for this to be rubbish? No. I'm sure there have been lots of people doing something for the very first time.

You are now saying that hole in the head and hole in the wen are two different things. I believe I thought it was two different things at first, but was told here that it is the same. Now I am being told the two are different. And now I am saying they are the same. A hole is a hole.

It just seems to me that every time I post I almost get intercepted by you with your reply like I have nothing meaningful to say and you'd rather this topic end. You say I am mistaken. Why? Why do I have to be mistaken? Because I have no experience? I've seen posts in the d&d section about trying this med or that med. On some meds it sounds unsure if it will work or not. Are you saying that you know for a fact that your suggestions will work? I would think not from the reads I've read. And I am by no means am saying this out of being rude or angry. I'm just simply asking. I feel like my topic has come down to you and me talking about it. Others might be worried/afraid to join in. I'm not saying this in any harsh way either. I'm remembering what Koko had posted earlier. :) A smile on my face.

What is it going to hurt to try those two meds I have suggested for a fish in need with a hole in it's head or wen? Have you tried both together for this particular reason? Has others? From what I have read these two meds work and the fish gets healed.

I'm not liking the debating back and fourth you and I are doing. This is tiring. I just want to give out info. that I've found out.

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Thank you Helen for replying and giving a ton of info. I'm going to have to re-read all this again, okay? Your last sentence did catch my eye though.:)

You said, The number one medicine for hole in the head is metronidazole. That's what I have been saying. :) I've seen these on posts and youtube. But I've seen posts with using that along with Nitrofuracin. Put both meds in with tank water.

I'm going to re read again your post and call it a night. I get up early. :(

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you're welcome hun. just please do not confuse Hole In The Head with Wen Ulcer (AKA Wen Hole) the two are totally non related.

my post above gives you information only on Hole In The Head and is not related to Wen Ulcer. ok?

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I'm not liking the debating back and fourth you and I are doing. This is tiring. I just want to give out info. that I've found out.

I'm not sure I understand, Cheryl. You insisted that you opened this thread because you wanted an open conversation, but now that you are getting this open conversation (albeit mostly with me), you seem to be saying that you don't want that, but rather just tell your point of view, unopposed. That's not how open conversations go, I'm pretty sure. I agree that it's exhausting.

Now, let's go with with this a hole is a hole idea that you have. I wish it were that simple but it's not. Let's use another example...a lump. A lump (on humans or fish) can be a benign or a malignant tumor, can be growth caused by a virus, be a bacteria cyst, by a parasitic cyst, or a combination of several of these. By just calling it a lump, you are missing the boat by several miles. The treatment really depends on the cause.

I have no problem with trying different methods of treatment, but let's try to understand the complexity of the problem first. That's all I ask.

You said, The number one medicine for hole in the head is metronidazole. That's what I have been saying. :)

Yes, Helen did say this, for hexamita-causing hole in the head, not wen ulcers.

I will repeat one more time. For wen ulcers, a number of things could work, including metronidazole, kanamycin, oxolinic acid, Baytril, potassium permanganate, etc. However, if the ulcer is deep enough (such as the case with Jet), sometimes nothing will work. That's the nature of the beast.

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you're welcome hun. just please do not confuse Hole In The Head with Wen Ulcer (AKA Wen Hole) the two are totally non related.

my post above gives you information only on Hole In The Head and is not related to Wen Ulcer. ok?

Again, That's not what I was told when Jet was sick. It was told that Jet had a hole in the head. I said, He has a hole in his wen. I was then told, It's all the same.

Did you read what I wrote about Jet's wen hole. If he didn't have a wen I bet you'd see a hole in his head. I'm thinking the hole started in his head and started eating away his wen, which makes it a hole in his wen.

As hard as it will be for me I'm going to stop and get some sleep.

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