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Hole in the head/wen. Open Conversation


4prettyfish

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Hello Everyone,

As some of you know I had an Oranda that lost his battle with a hole in his wen just over a week ago. I was completely devastated. My goal for this post is for all of us to put our thoughts, idea's, and fish experience together to perhaps come up with something different to help our Oranda's in need with this particular devastating disease/problem. I know I'm not a Moderator or a helper and I also have no experience with fish medicine. But I am hopeful that this thread will get some great conversations going with those that I just mentioned along with anyone else that is interested in contributing to this topic. I might not weigh in a lot but I am very much interested in reading what all of you have to say. So I hope this is okay.

I am concerned because since Jet's death I have seen other threads that have had, or that have a fish with a hole in his/her head or wen. Our beloved fish are being taken by this horrible disease. I by no means am trying to hurt anyone by getting them alarmed, worried, or hurt. And I sure don't want anyone getting mad or upset with me to want to talk about this. I have more Oranda's in my tanks and I think about one of them getting this "hole in the head" just like Jet did. If we can all talk about this and perhaps stop this from progressing on another fish and taking his/her life I'd like to try.

I'll get the conversation started.

I've been on the computer off and on and doing a little research since Jet's death. I'm a little confused by some of the words.

1) Ulcer

2) Hexamita

3) Hole in the Head/Wen

An Ulcer from what I've gathered is caused by damage to the skin inflicted by either a parasite or exposure to chemicals of ammonia or ph levels. Or perhaps even stressed fish. To treat Ulcers you would use a topical treatment.

Hexamita is caused by intestinal flagellated protozoa and attacks the digestive system and lower intestines of the infected sick fish.

Hole in the head is a nutrient deficiency. That's why your fish wen starts to develop a hole. The disease is internal then right?

The hexamita and hole in the head are two different things going on with your fish. From what I have read you treat your fish with a medicine called Metronidazole. It says it's safe and effective for parasitic and bacterial infections. You can keep your filters on and going. It won't ruin your beneficial bacteria. It's a powder medicine that you put into your tank water for your Oranda that has a hole in the head/wen. I believe you use it for 10 days. Oscar's also get this hole in the head disease. From what I've read this is also contagious.

I didn't know if I can post the websites I was finding this information on. If so, Let me know. I have a few different ones that I've been looking at. I also found information on youtube. I don't know how to directly put the site on here though but I can type the name for you.

So what do you think about all of this? I keep coming back to the word Metronidazole on the internet.

Thank you for reading this because I am interested in this topic.

Edited by 4prettyfish
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Way to be proactive and learning! I too am interested in the issues you mentioned. :D

Do you know what deficiencies cause hole in the head/wen? :idont

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Cheryl,

Metronidazole is a broad-spectrum antibiotic targeting anaerobic bacteria, and it also demonstrates antiparasite activity as well, especially protozoans, of which hexamita is one type. Metronidazole has many uses, and is being used widely, which actually can present a big danger for development of med resistance when used indiscriminately and inappropriately.

Here are some general comments:

- Hole in the head looks like this

Oscar_Scotland_Cruise_105%5B1%5D.jpg

parrot%20sick%20wwm.jpg

Please note the distinct absence of inflammation. HITH is thought to be caused by hexamita, and metronidazole is a very good treatment for it.

- Hole in the wen, on the other hand, looks like this:

moo-pig-red-bump.jpg

draft_lens19072937module156487565photo_1

IMG_1113-1.jpg

In all cases, please note the inflammation of the ulceration.

There is very little information published in books on treatments, although by now, from people's experience, these are almost always bacterial in nature, and as such, can be treated with antibiotics. Depending on the severity and the type (here we don't know which really, unless we have a vet test), a number of medications, including Medi-Gold, Metro-Meds, kanamycin, oxolinic acid, baytril, etc. can work. I've used them all, and they have worked, or not, or temporarily worked, depending on the fish and the ulcer.

What is known is that in cases like Jet, deep wounds like that almost always spell certain doom, unless you intervene, and intervene quickly. That was why we recommended that you performed surgery.

- Nutritional deficiencies - I can see how this can affect both hole in the head and ulcers, but unless you are feeding goldfish your own homemade food without making sure that it's a good diet, this is really not a possibility.

- So, the take home message is that there is a huge difference between hole in the head and hole in the wen/ulcers, and you can actually rather easily tell them apart. You can also make a good prognosis of the situation, as we have. :(

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Hole in the head can be caused by bad water and not enough variety in food. However I don't think that is what the goldfish are getting. As stated above. I am a huge believer in prevention is your best medicine.

Don't over stock. Don't miss your weekly LARGE water change. As soon as you even think you see a problem do an extra water change that week and test the water. I just don't have to deal with illness very often.

You can never do to many water changes or to big ones.

Hope someone has some good answers.

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I am a huge believer in prevention is your best medicine.

Don't over stock. Don't miss your weekly LARGE water change. As soon as you even think you see a problem do an extra water change that week and test the water. I just don't have to deal with illness very often.

You can never do to many water changes or to big ones.

Wise words to live by!

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Way to be proactive and learning! I too am interested in the issues you mentioned. :D

Do you know what deficiencies cause hole in the head/wen? :idont

Thank you. Deficiencies = as in vitamins and minerals I believe. The fish get's this hole because it's lacking the nutrients because of what's going on in the fish's belly. So the hole just gets bigger and bigger. I believe what needs to be taken care of is the parasites or whatever is going on in the belly then the hole will heal.

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Hole in the head can be caused by bad water and not enough variety in food. However I don't think that is what the goldfish are getting. As stated above. I am a huge believer in prevention is your best medicine.

Don't over stock. Don't miss your weekly LARGE water change. As soon as you even think you see a problem do an extra water change that week and test the water. I just don't have to deal with illness very often.

You can never do to many water changes or to big ones.

Hope someone has some good answers.

I too believe in clean water is the best preventative medicine for a lot of different things. I also don't believe in overstocking even though at one time I did have 4 small goldfish in a 55g. I knew it was pushing it. That is awesome that you don't have to deal with illnesses very often. I too don't. I have 4 fish right now that I have had for over a year now. (last June/July) and none of these fish have been sick with a terrible disease. I've had them all since they were probably about 4 months old. Now Jet, I did get him fully grown. So I don't and didn't know his medical history. It is my conclusion that I purchased him sick already. If anyone were to go back and read all my posts it states that I was always thinking he was "a lttile off". I don't regret my purchasing him at all. He was a wonderful gentle big Oranda. I believe you can take care of a fish as well as you can and you just might never know the outcome down the road on a fish. With that said though, I am very hopeful that all 5 of my fish that I have now will be healthy. But some diseases are more susceptible I think in some. If you read in the obituaries you will read how the owner did everything for their fish. The fish passed away anyway. Jet did.

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Way to be proactive and learning! I too am interested in the issues you mentioned. :D

Do you know what deficiencies cause hole in the head/wen? :idont

Thank you. Deficiencies = as in vitamins and minerals I believe. The fish get's this hole because it's lacking the nutrients because of what's going on in the fish's belly. So the hole just gets bigger and bigger. I believe what needs to be taken care of is the parasites or whatever is going on in the belly then the hole will heal.
I would love some evidence of this. Where do you get that parasites from the belly will cause hole in the head?

You and Helen both have thoughts that this is parasite related. I would love it if it's true. Jess and I have both used metronidazole, and much good that did us.

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Way to be proactive and learning! I too am interested in the issues you mentioned. :D

Do you know what deficiencies cause hole in the head/wen? :idont

Thank you. Deficiencies = as in vitamins and minerals I believe. The fish get's this hole because it's lacking the nutrients because of what's going on in the fish's belly. So the hole just gets bigger and bigger. I believe what needs to be taken care of is the parasites or whatever is going on in the belly then the hole will heal.
I would love some evidence of this. Where do you get that parasites from the belly will cause hole in the head?

You and Helen both have thoughts that this is parasite related. I would love it if it's true. Jess and I have both used metronidazole, and much good that did us.

I was working on answering your first reply Alex in between getting dinner going. I'm going to have to get back to you on that first post of yours.

But this question, Evidence. I've only been reading stuff on the internet off and on since Jet's death. I'm only trying to get a conversation going and to see if we can try to help others with this problem. From my readings parasite(s) is attacking the organs, which is also in the belly, which is sucking up all the nutrients which equals vitamins and minerals. A wen growth needs those nutrients to grow. Since the wen is lacking nutrients the wen has developed a hole. Or, in the head. The wen can't get fixed/healed/closed up because the fish is still lacking nutrients. Get that taken care of and maybe the wen hole will grow back. My thinking might not come out as clear as what I want it to type but I hope you and everyone else reading this understands what I'm trying to say.

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Pages 264-268 in fish disease by e. Noga is about idiopathic epidermal proliferation. In there is explains that goldfish are one of the most common aquarium species that are affected by neoplasia. He indicates that reactive hyperplasia is a common response to parasitic infestations or chronic trauma. Surgical excision is the recommendation.

This however does not discuss specifically the wen spots that have been cropping up.

How do we get more information? People who can scope and scrape and biopsy their wen spots can share their findings. People who have lab services available to them can organize to have removed tissue examined at a cost. The fact that antibiotics have helped indicates a possible stained scrape to check for bacterial prescence.

Prevention is the best key as stated above. Check your water, increase your water changes, wipe down your interior surfaces if there is bottom sitting. If you are unsure take lots of pictures of the wen if you think something is off. Catch it early and react quickly.

Thank you for having such a thirst for knowledge. It is refreshing to see :hug

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Cheryl,

Metronidazole is a broad-spectrum antibiotic targeting anaerobic bacteria, and it also demonstrates antiparasite activity as well, especially protozoans, of which hexamita is one type. Metronidazole has many uses, and is being used widely, which actually can present a big danger for development of med resistance when used indiscriminately and inappropriately.

Here are some general comments:

- Hole in the head looks like this

Oscar_Scotland_Cruise_105%5B1%5D.jpg

parrot%20sick%20wwm.jpg

Please note the distinct absence of inflammation. HITH is thought to be caused by hexamita, and metronidazole is a very good treatment for it.

- Hole in the wen, on the other hand, looks like this:

moo-pig-red-bump.jpg

draft_lens19072937module156487565photo_1

IMG_1113-1.jpg

In all cases, please note the inflammation of the ulceration.

There is very little information published in books on treatments, although by now, from people's experience, these are almost always bacterial in nature, and as such, can be treated with antibiotics. Depending on the severity and the type (here we don't know which really, unless we have a vet test), a number of medications, including Medi-Gold, Metro-Meds, kanamycin, oxolinic acid, baytril, etc. can work. I've used them all, and they have worked, or not, or temporarily worked, depending on the fish and the ulcer.

What is known is that in cases like Jet, deep wounds like that almost always spell certain doom, unless you intervene, and intervene quickly. That was why we recommended that you performed surgery.

- Nutritional deficiencies - I can see how this can affect both hole in the head and ulcers, but unless you are feeding goldfish your own homemade food without making sure that it's a good diet, this is really not a possibility.

- So, the take home message is that there is a huge difference between hole in the head and hole in the wen/ulcers, and you can actually rather easily tell them apart. You can also make a good prognosis of the situation, as we have. :(

Thank you for all this information. Much appreciated Alex.

Okay, first paragraph. I can see if the medicine is misused that your fish can have resistance to the med if used inappropriately. I get that. But what if people don't use it inappropriately. What if a fish never had that medicine before and now a fish with a wen has a hole in it. What if you were to use that medicine and see what happens? I'm only asking. It's like when a person tries other medicines and if one doesn't work you hopefully have time to try another before the fish gets worse.

The photo's you posted Alex....thank you. Jet had a "hole". It was not like the other photo's that were red and inflamed.

You, I'm sure already know this where I did not. The metronidazole medicine is in either the metro meds or the medi gold. That's probably why you had mailed me some of that medicine. In case I needed to get Jet started on it.

I don't regret any of the work I've done on Jet with Helen's help. I would have been at a total loss. Helen knows how appreciative I am with her. And I hope you know with you also Alex. Surgery for Jet didn't work. So, why not try the metronidazole on the next fish. I didn't want to start this topic talking about Jet.

I think the hole in the head/wen and ulcers can all be closely the same and would be, and is confusing to me. I'm trying to learn in case this happens again with one of my other fish and to possibly "think outside" a new approach.

I've seen youth with the same problem as Jet. I can not imagine the young person trying to attempt what I did with Helen. You'd really have to have a parents back on the child's/minor/youth fish.

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Which is why we did not recommend the procedure to the child. I'm sure you recall that I personally asked if I parent could get involved.

As for the vitamin deficiencies, I will repeat one more time. Goldfish are about in as much danger of being nutrient deficient as most Americans, who are more in danger of being obese.

The only other thing I can tell you is that from the most reliable not book sources I have been able to study from, parasites are not the problem with wen ulcers. Jeff, Jess; and I, not to mention an entire other forum, have been able to treat this with pure antibiotics, when it is actually treatable.

As for Jet's wen, it's no coincidence that by simply looking at it I was able to tell you already how difficult it was going to be, compared to Louise Ann's case. I wish I didn't have that kind of familiarity, but unfortunately I do.

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Alex: I forgot to post regarding you and Jess using this medicine before. I'm sorry it didn't work for you and your fish. I don't know the story behind it. I don't know if it was wen or hole related. But it must have been sad for the both of you.

Perhaps the medicine was used to late and not early in the stages. I don't know. I'm only talking about options here and to see what and if something else could be tried on the fish that have a hole in their wen or head now. I know what they must be going through for I went through it and it was devastating.

I'm sorry for your losses of fish and that the metronidazole didn't work.

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Alex: I forgot to post regarding you and Jess using this medicine before. I'm sorry it didn't work for you and your fish. I don't know the story behind it. I don't know if it was wen or hole related. But it must have been sad for the both of you.

Perhaps the medicine was used to late and not early in the stages. I don't know. I'm only talking about options here and to see what and if something else could be tried on the fish that have a hole in their wen or head now. I know what they must be going through for I went through it and it was devastating.

I'm sorry for your losses of fish and that the metronidazole didn't work.

And I'm telling you we have tried all sorts of things, and even earlier and less severe than Jet's.

There was a reason why I told you I gave up on Orandas.

In any case, I simply wish to share this with you. I am in no way trying to discourage you from doing your own research. If you continue to have Orandas, you will have other situations to apply your knowledge.

Good luck!

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Pages 264-268 in fish disease by e. Noga is about idiopathic epidermal proliferation. In there is explains that goldfish are one of the most common aquarium species that are affected by neoplasia. He indicates that reactive hyperplasia is a common response to parasitic infestations or chronic trauma. Surgical excision is the recommendation.

This however does not discuss specifically the wen spots that have been cropping up.

How do we get more information? People who can scope and scrape and biopsy their wen spots can share their findings. People who have lab services available to them can organize to have removed tissue examined at a cost. The fact that antibiotics have helped indicates a possible stained scrape to check for bacterial prescence.

Prevention is the best key as stated above. Check your water, increase your water changes, wipe down your interior surfaces if there is bottom sitting. If you are unsure take lots of pictures of the wen if you think something is off. Catch it early and react quickly.

Thank you for having such a thirst for knowledge. It is refreshing to see :hug

Thank you for your book information. Too bad it wasn't specifically for wen huh? I don't think most people are going to scope and scrape and do a biopsy on their fish. That would all be wonderful. Just not enough info I guess.

Agreed about prevention is best key. But one never really knows. right? Thank you for your kind words and hug. I appreciate it a lot.

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Pages 264-268 in fish disease by e. Noga is about idiopathic epidermal proliferation. In there is explains that goldfish are one of the most common aquarium species that are affected by neoplasia. He indicates that reactive hyperplasia is a common response to parasitic infestations or chronic trauma. Surgical excision is the recommendation.This however does not discuss specifically the wen spots that have been cropping up.How do we get more information? People who can scope and scrape and biopsy their wen spots can share their findings. People who have lab services available to them can organize to have removed tissue examined at a cost. The fact that antibiotics have helped indicates a possible stained scrape to check for bacterial prescence.Prevention is the best key as stated above. Check your water, increase your water changes, wipe down your interior surfaces if there is bottom sitting. If you are unsure take lots of pictures of the wen if you think something is off. Catch it early and react quickly.Thank you for having such a thirst for knowledge. It is refreshing to see :hug

Thank you for your book information. Too bad it wasn't specifically for wen huh? I don't think most people are going to scope and scrape and do a biopsy on their fish. That would all be wonderful. Just not enough info I guess.Agreed about prevention is best key. But one never really knows. right? Thank you for your kind words and hug. I appreciate it a lot.

I disagree respectively. We have more and more people on the forum scoping and scraping and more people are becoming comfortable with it. I do not have the means to scope at the moment but it is something I will start doing. I also plan on asking people who raise lake stock (I work with a few of them) what independent lab they use for the work ups for their government contracts. If I am this determined about fish in a sleepy little town the I can only imagine those who are in the cities having the same ambitions and making them happen.

In the nine or ten years I've been here, personal scoping is at it's highest and I anticipate those numbers to increase. More than one 'bad guy' could cause this reaction knowing the 'bad guy' means knowing what can effectively treat it. Since time is of the essence in these situations it helps tremendously.

Maybe I am just an optimist :idont

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Alex, Are you mad at me? What did I do? I wanted this to be an open communication for everyone that has a fish with a Wen. Forgive me, but it sounds like you are ending this topic and I don't know why. I know your a Mod but I've only been here for a year and haven't seen or read a ton on the d&d section regarding what I'm trying to discuss so I thought this would be a good thing since there are people with a sick Wen Fish. I feel like your getting frustrated with me.

Your post number 13...I agree with your two paragraphs.

Last paragraph,...I guess I was naïve. I thought, do surgery and it will be gone. It came back not even a week later. I feel like I'm having a debate with you. I don't want that. What do you do for a living? I can be debatable and pig headed I guess if you want me to. But I don't want it because I think of you as a friend now that has helped me out soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. :(

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Pages 264-268 in fish disease by e. Noga is about idiopathic epidermal proliferation. In there is explains that goldfish are one of the most common aquarium species that are affected by neoplasia. He indicates that reactive hyperplasia is a common response to parasitic infestations or chronic trauma. Surgical excision is the recommendation.This however does not discuss specifically the wen spots that have been cropping up.How do we get more information? People who can scope and scrape and biopsy their wen spots can share their findings. People who have lab services available to them can organize to have removed tissue examined at a cost. The fact that antibiotics have helped indicates a possible stained scrape to check for bacterial prescence.Prevention is the best key as stated above. Check your water, increase your water changes, wipe down your interior surfaces if there is bottom sitting. If you are unsure take lots of pictures of the wen if you think something is off. Catch it early and react quickly.Thank you for having such a thirst for knowledge. It is refreshing to see :hug

Thank you for your book information. Too bad it wasn't specifically for wen huh? I don't think most people are going to scope and scrape and do a biopsy on their fish. That would all be wonderful. Just not enough info I guess.Agreed about prevention is best key. But one never really knows. right? Thank you for your kind words and hug. I appreciate it a lot.

I disagree respectively. We have more and more people on the forum scoping and scraping and more people are becoming comfortable with it. I do not have the means to scope at the moment but it is something I will start doing. I also plan on asking people who raise lake stock (I work with a few of them) what independent lab they use for the work ups for their government contracts. If I am this determined about fish in a sleepy little town the I can only imagine those who are in the cities having the same ambitions and making them happen.

In the nine or ten years I've been here, personal scoping is at it's highest and I anticipate those numbers to increase. More than one 'bad guy' could cause this reaction knowing the 'bad guy' means knowing what can effectively treat it. Since time is of the essence in these situations it helps tremendously.

Maybe I am just an optimist :idont

I'm sorry I didn't know this then.

Jet is still in my freezer because I have thought off and on about opening him up to see what I might find. This isn't easy.

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The problem with scoping, is that it's great for parasite detection. It doesn't do much for the average aquarist when it comes to bacterial infection, which is what wen ulcers are all about.

The other thing with scoping, and with science is general, is that detection is probably a yes, but lack of detection is not necessarily a no.

I agree with Una, though. Microscopes are useful, even for the average aquarist.

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In my limited experience so far it really depends on the nature of the ulcer that is being treated. It is difficult with dark colored fish like Jet (and Puff who also had significant and untreatable wen issues) because of the coloring we are less apt to notice the trouble brewing until the issue is quite extensive. The ulcer may also simply start deep within the wen and not be noticeable until the inflammation is close to the surface. At this point, in my (again limited) experience medications are not really a viable option.

However, for a small ulcer that is isolated to the surface of the tissue this can be more easily treated, although even if one is treated it does appear to be a recurrent issue that crops up from time to time. I believe medigold (specifically the kanamycin) is more effective than metro at treating these sort of treatable ulcers.

Edie has never (knock on wood) had any wen issues, but Hashi has had spots crop up from time to time. I typically take a wait and see approach because his immune system seems to be able to handle them fine and I think I have enough knowledge at this point to determine when I would need to treat. With Puff his wen issues were ongoing despite multiple rounds of medications including metro, then oxolinic acid, then medigold. The ulcers would appear to get better but then come back worse than ever. I believe he was a fish that surgery probably would have been the best option for, but he also had so many other issues going on at that time that I doubt he would have been able to recover from surgery. He was sick for a good year before I finally had to let him go.

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@ 4prettyfish

Please accept sincere condolences for poor Jet! From your threads/posts it seems you did all you knew for him, and also did everything you could to find more that might help him (maybe foolishly, but somehow or on some level I like to believe he understands this and really appreciates your caring).

Thanks for your thoughtfulness in starting this thread. imo you really did think creatively "outside the box" about HITH or wen ulcer disease (whichever applies) and nutrient deficiency. Way to put it together!

To me, it absolutely makes sense that if nutritional deficiency causes or contributes to HITH or wen ulcer disease, that internal parasites well may be to blame, or at least material contributors. How likely is it, really, that simple nutrient deficiency would be common in GF enthusiasts' fish? Or as commonly-seen, anyway, as HITH or wen ulcer disease in the fish of conscientious GF keepers (operative word: "conscientious," excluding those poor GF that have to live in bowls on a flake-food diet).

Different phylogenetic class, true, but among mammalian species, host nutrient deprivation due to an intestinal parasite burden is well-known, well-described.

Edited by Steve1107
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Steve, just as I asked Cheryl, I will also ask you, do you really think that goldfish in the US are really in danger of nutrient deficiencies?

No one has ever questioned that nutritional deficiencies can exacerbate all sorts of health problems, but I don't think that any goldfish (certain none belonging to anyone on this illustrious forum) are suffering from deficiencies in nutrition. There is great danger of nutrient overload yes.

One must also not forget the fact that if there are internal parasites at work, you can see some gross evidence of this, including emaciation, and other signs of wasting, or nutrients being diverted elsewhere. In the case of hexamita, the gross clinical signs are abdominal swelling, popeye, and wasting. In the case of these wen ulcers, I have yet to see evidence of such wasting. Jet was a rather robust looking oranda with a robust wen.

Thinking outside the box is something which we should all strive to do, but we have to develop a context. You can't argue an internal parasite and nutritional deficiencies when there are absolutely no signs. Certainly, if the deficiencies are severe enough that it's having an overall health impairment, you should at least see some signs, no?

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Thank you very much Steve for your words above, especially in your two paragraphs. I appreciate all what you have written though. I'm glad it made sense to you about the deficiency and that you seem to understand what I'm trying to get across. I don't think it's that simple even though what I wrote make it seem to be. I'm learning that fish are easy to take care of if you don't have any problems with them but when one gets sick it's another story.

Like I had said earlier I've had four of my fish for over a year and had no health problems at all. It was pretty much easy and enjoy them. I did have a problem with my cycle due to "cleaning" too much. :( But with the help of Alex I got that all back on track. But still, no sick fish until I had Jet.

I just want to get dialog started and not argue or debate about it.

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In my limited experience so far it really depends on the nature of the ulcer that is being treated. It is difficult with dark colored fish like Jet (and Puff who also had significant and untreatable wen issues) because of the coloring we are less apt to notice the trouble brewing until the issue is quite extensive. The ulcer may also simply start deep within the wen and not be noticeable until the inflammation is close to the surface. At this point, in my (again limited) experience medications are not really a viable option.

However, for a small ulcer that is isolated to the surface of the tissue this can be more easily treated, although even if one is treated it does appear to be a recurrent issue that crops up from time to time. I believe medigold (specifically the kanamycin) is more effective than metro at treating these sort of treatable ulcers.

Edie has never (knock on wood) had any wen issues, but Hashi has had spots crop up from time to time. I typically take a wait and see approach because his immune system seems to be able to handle them fine and I think I have enough knowledge at this point to determine when I would need to treat. With Puff his wen issues were ongoing despite multiple rounds of medications including metro, then oxolinic acid, then medigold. The ulcers would appear to get better but then come back worse than ever. I believe he was a fish that surgery probably would have been the best option for, but he also had so many other issues going on at that time that I doubt he would have been able to recover from surgery. He was sick for a good year before I finally had to let him go.

Jess, When you say the ulcer might be deep in the wen are you talking about the "hole"? Jet had a hole in his wen. I wonder if the wen was gone I'd see a hole in his head also. Is the hole that deep? Other fish that don't have wens but have a hole in the head is it all the same with a wen fish? I'm thinking yes. right?!!

I've seen the med oxolinic acid mentioned also with the metronidazole. Have you used more than one med to treat Puff or Hashi? I didn't know all the reason behind Puff's passing. I just remember I was very sad for him and you. He was one of the first Oranda's that Taylor and I have seen on youtube and just thought, How gorgeous your fish are.

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