Jump to content

Nitrobacter in the Aquarium cycle


joel08

Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

I hear that Nitrobacter plays an important role in the conversion process of Nitrites to Nitrates. And Nitrosamonas help with ammonia to nitrite.

1. When the nitrite spike happens which is around 25 days from first day of cycling, does the Nitrobacter completely remove nitrites from that point onwards?

2. What promotes the growth of these bacteria to speed up the cycle?

3. How long can I wait to put in the first fish if I'm doing a fish-less cycle?

Edited by joel08
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

1. Once nitrites appear, it takes a while for the beneficial bacteria to be able to handle the conversion of nitrites to nitrates. So, no it will not be instant.

2. They reproduce more quickly in warmer water (higher 70s), a higher pH (8.3 is ideal) and a higher KH (over 100, over 150 is even better). Temperature is easily raised with a heater if needed, if pH is 7.5 or above I wouldn't mess with it, and knowing your KH is important.

3. Your cycle will be complete once your cycle can process 1 ppm of ammonia in a 24 hour period. So add 1 ppm of ammonia, test the water 24 hours later. If ammonia and nitrites are 0 and you have nitrates, you're cycled and can add fish. This typically takes a good 6-8 weeks, sometimes longer. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I hear that Nitrobacter plays an important role in the conversion process of Nitrites to Nitrates. And Nitrosamonas help with ammonia to nitrite.

1. When the nitrite spike happens which is around 25 days from first day of cycling, does the Nitrobacter completely remove nitrites from that point onwards?

2. What promotes the growth of these bacteria to speed up the cycle?

3. How long can I wait to put in the first fish if I'm doing a fish-less cycle?

You heard correctly.

1. I don't know when the nitrite spike happens, and no one can. Day 25 seems like a good time frame, but don't count on it. It take a few weeks, or even longer, from the beginning of the spike to when the tank is cycled. You have to check your parameters daily.

2. High kH value, and food for the bacteria, as well as optimal pH and temp.

3. When your cycle is complete, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I hear that Nitrobacter plays an important role in the conversion process of Nitrites to Nitrates. And Nitrosamonas help with ammonia to nitrite.

1. When the nitrite spike happens which is around 25 days from first day of cycling, does the Nitrobacter completely remove nitrites from that point onwards?

When you see the nitrite spike appear, the ammonia is either decreasing or gone. So when you have high nitrites, they will soon decrease & nitrates will appear. I would tell you how long it took my nitrites to appear and decrease, but my cycling journal has been misplaced :/

2. What promotes the growth of these bacteria to speed up the cycle?

The pure ammonia stimulates the growth, as well as bumping the temp. up a bit. Products such as Nutrafin Cycle can be used as supplements since they contain some bacteria, but they WILL NOT complete the cycle. They provide a small 'boost'

3. How long can I wait to put in the first fish if I'm doing a fish-less cycle?

When ammonia and nitrite are zero, and nitrates are present :)

Edited by teleSC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

In fact, Nitrobacter has no role in nitrite conversion in aquatic environment. Nitrobacter plays this role in soil, not water.

The real nitrite to nitrate converter in water is Nitrospira.

For a good cyle stability, high KH is the key. I tend to think KH is the master value of all nitrogen cycle. A KH of at least 5 (90 ppm) will provide a stable PH AND is directly used by Nitrifying bacteria

If Nitrogen cycle was a 4 stroke engine, Ammonia would be the fuel, KH would be the lubricant. An engine can't work with the right amount of lubrification.

Edited by King Poseidon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

In fact, Nitrobacter has no role in nitrite conversion in aquatic environment. Nitrobacter plays this role in soil, not water.

This is, in fact, absolutely not true. I'm afraid that you were deceived by the people who market Nitrospira products.

Dynamics between the two along the Seine river :pp

http://envismadrasuniv.org/General%20Ecology/pdf/Nitrobacter%20and%20Nitrospira%20genera.pdf

And in sludge,

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bit.21004/abstract

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Thanks for the links Dnalex :D

This links show there's a différence between natural and artificialy controled environment (like our fish tanks).

In our tanks, Nitrospira seems to rule. A quote from the first link, page 4989

The predominance of Nitrospira-like species rather than Nitrobacter species responsible for oxidation of nitrite into nitrate have been reported from freshwater aquaria (Hovanec et al., 1998), nitrifying bioreactors and WWTPs (Burrell et al., 1998;Juretschko et al., 1998;Schramm et al., 1998, 1999;Daims et al., 2001) but not yet for natural, albeit human-impacted, hydrosystem

Edited by King Poseidon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

There is a bit of a difference between sewage sludge and aquariums.

There is. :)

That is why I included both, to demonstrate that these organisms are a lot less restricted in where they are found.

Thanks for the links Dnalex :D

This links show there's a différence between natural and artificialy controled environment (like our fish tanks).

In our tanks, Nitrospira seems to rule. A quote from the first link, page 4989

The predominance of Nitrospira-like species rather than Nitrobacter species responsible for oxidation of nitrite into nitrate have been reported from freshwater aquaria (Hovanec et al., 1998), nitrifying bioreactors and WWTPs (Burrell et al., 1998;Juretschko et al., 1998;Schramm et al., 1998, 1999;Daims et al., 2001) but not yet for natural, albeit human-impacted, hydrosystem

Actually, if you read the introduction, page 4980, Nitrospira was until recently thought be marine environments, but has now beeen found elsewhere, and appear to occupy the same niche as Nitrobacter. I actually went back to the 1998 Hovanec article, and I am not sure at all this what they found in aquaria is definitive. They took samples from aquarium gravel, instead of filter media.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC124703/pdf/am000258.pdf

There is a recent article looking at shrimp pond sediments

http://www.textroad.com/pdf/JAFT/J.%20Agric.%20Food.%20Tech.,%201(12)%20231-237,%202011.pdf

and there, both Nitrospira and Nitrobacter are found, and it appears that Nitrobacter are more efficient at processing nitrites.

My point in is that I don't think it's conclusive at all that Nitrospira are predominant in freshwater aquaria, and it may be a situation of where depending on where you look, you might see something different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

This paper is pretty current:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3660363/

This is interesting.

http://journals.ohiolink.edu/ejc/search.cgi?q=keywords:%22Microbiota%22&journal.facet=Aquaculture

Microbiologists did not consider Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter to to the dominant nitrifying genera even before nucleic acid technology got to the point that it was possible to identify which organisms were active in an ecosystem. The textbooks said "Ammonia is oxidized to nitrite by one kind of bacteria, such as Nitrosomonas, and nitrite is oxidized to nitrate by another kind of bacteria, such as Nitrobacter. The texts intended for upper division work listed some alternative examples. So why did they chose these genera as the examples? For the same reason that E. coli is the organism whose genetics is best understood -- it's easy to grow. As chemautotrophs go, Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are relatively easy to culture, so they were the ones to study.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

The first article refers to brackish water, which is entirely a different story. It might even be a different Nitrospira.

As you saw from the pond sediment, Nitrobacter can certainly be there, and pulling their weight.

Regardless of which genera, the points I made above still stand. I've already learned the lesson where people for the longest time considered Nitrosomonas the only AO microorganisms. Now we know that archaea are as important, if not more. As for Nitrobacter, I would love seeing the same group that did the studies on archaea on filter media to take a look. Actually, I will email and ask him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

In fact, Nitrobacter has no role in nitrite conversion in aquatic environment. Nitrobacter plays this role in soil, not water.

The real nitrite to nitrate converter in water is Nitrospira.

For a good cyle stability, high KH is the key. I tend to think KH is the master value of all nitrogen cycle. A KH of at least 5 (90 ppm) will provide a stable PH AND is directly used by Nitrifying bacteria

If Nitrogen cycle was a 4 stroke engine, Ammonia would be the fuel, KH would be the lubricant. An engine can't work with the right amount of lubrification.

This is a great analogy, the best I have read online. Also doesn't ammonia cause a higher KH value itself?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

In fact, Nitrobacter has no role in nitrite conversion in aquatic environment. Nitrobacter plays this role in soil, not water.

The real nitrite to nitrate converter in water is Nitrospira.

For a good cyle stability, high KH is the key. I tend to think KH is the master value of all nitrogen cycle. A KH of at least 5 (90 ppm) will provide a stable PH AND is directly used by Nitrifying bacteria

If Nitrogen cycle was a 4 stroke engine, Ammonia would be the fuel, KH would be the lubricant. An engine can't work with the right amount of lubrification.

This is a great analogy, the best I have read online. Also doesn't ammonia cause a higher KH value itself?

Why would ammonia contribute to kH? The only things contributing to kH are carbonates and bicarbonates, of which ammonia does not contain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin

In fact, Nitrobacter has no role in nitrite conversion in aquatic environment. Nitrobacter plays this role in soil, not water.

The real nitrite to nitrate converter in water is Nitrospira.

For a good cyle stability, high KH is the key. I tend to think KH is the master value of all nitrogen cycle. A KH of at least 5 (90 ppm) will provide a stable PH AND is directly used by Nitrifying bacteria

If Nitrogen cycle was a 4 stroke engine, Ammonia would be the fuel, KH would be the lubricant. An engine can't work with the right amount of lubrification.

This is a great analogy, the best I have read online. Also doesn't ammonia cause a higher KH value itself?

Why would ammonia contribute to kH? The only things contributing to kH are carbonates and bicarbonates, of which ammonia does not contain.

yeah I wish it did so my kh would go down ... cool :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin

For a good cyle stability, high KH is the key. I tend to think KH is the master value of all nitrogen cycle. A KH of at least 5 (90 ppm) will provide a stable PH AND is directly used by Nitrifying bacteria

If Nitrogen cycle was a 4 stroke engine, Ammonia would be the fuel, KH would be the lubricant. An engine can't work with the right amount of lubrification.

I kinda understand this... but you need ammonia first and the KH is more of a stabilizer in the whole cycle... cause with out a high KH the ph will drop and then they cycle will go...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...