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My LFS's article on goldfish <sigh>


pawsplus

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It's the best LFS anywhere around and their fish are healthy. And it COULD be worse, certainly. But this is pretty sad, particularly the "goldfish are vegetarians" bit and the recommendation to overstock. :(

http://www.aquaticcritter.com/Freshwater/Goldfish_secondclass_citizens.htm

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Salt?! Why are LFS Always big on salt? :(

I really think that aside from the salt the article is pretty nice. At least they mention the use of goldfish specific food, which if a good brand will provide enough protein to sustain the fish without the use of supplements.

We are so spoiled here at Koko 's with all of our knowledge. :teehee

-Using Tapatalk.

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I suppose. I mean, they could recommend 5 in a 10 like PetStupid! Still, though, I expected better of them. They ARE by far the best place anywhere around here and people ask their advice. I guess they figure that if people were told "3 in a 55" they just wouldn't buy anything.

And you know why they're so big on salt--so people will BUY IT! I bought huge containers of the stuff for 12 years before I came here and found out not to bother. I still have 2 big cartons of it (good for emergencies).

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To be honest with you for a pet store, I'm quite impressed with the article. Besides the salt thing and the fact they say goldfish shouldn't have protein or high protein in their diets they were pretty spot on in their article. Given they were a bit over stocked with tank size and amount of fish. It is a good point that if they did say 3 people probably wouldn't buy them and they could also be going by the old ten gallon per fish rule.

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Recommended space for goldfish (fancies) at most pet stores I've been to seem to hover around 50 liters per fish (13 us gallons?). Which is, on the small side. However, most also state that the minimum tank size should be no less than 120 liters (31 us gallons?). There's a well known aquarium website/forum that most stores take their space requirements from aswell as information about the care of different species. Because of this, many stores do offer the same or at least similar information. The downside being that goldfish aren't a high status fish and as such get less attention on the aforementioned site/forum, which is a really good one, just not as great with goldfish as they are with cichlids etc.

*I used a converter to figure out the amount of gallons above, I am not sure how accurate it is.

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I also found it a bit abrasive to say that you're doing it wrong if your fish doesn't live 10 years or more. I thought the rounded average for goldfish lifespans was 5 years? The more hardy breeds might live 10 years or more, with 20 years being pretty good for commons, and the world record of 42 years I believe? At least this is my understanding from all that I've learned.

At any rate, 4 in a 55 gallon is what I'm working with and I have to say, I don't recommend it for beginners or people unwilling to do the work. I can't wait to buy a water changer! :rofl

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Hmm... I read this article and I mean it's not that bad. I've seen plenty worse. Also, like there's no "set" of rules that are 100% accepted by everyone. Like the amount of stocking is highly controversial such as 1 gallon per inch of fish to 20g+10*# of fish, etc... Of course there's a generally accepted things like the more water the better. No need to take everything to heart. :P

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I also found it a bit abrasive to say that you're doing it wrong if your fish doesn't live 10 years or more. I thought the rounded average for goldfish lifespans was 5 years? The more hardy breeds might live 10 years or more, with 20 years being pretty good for commons, and the world record of 42 years I believe? At least this is my understanding from all that I've learned.

Well, my current fish are 6 and 4, and I definitely plan to have them around a lot longer! GF can live to 20 years so . . . fact is that if they don't, we're doing something wrong. That doesn't mean it's intentional or neglect--it's just easier to mess up in tanks than ponds (less water so less stable parameters). No one is blaming anyone if something does happen and they die earlier, as long as common sense fish rules were followed. But it IS a fact that GF can and should live a long time. I lost 3 fish at once 6 years ago after we had a problem with the spring and I stopped buying bottled water and went back to the spring too soon. :( That was my fault--I own I.

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Like most, I don't think the article is too bad. There are a few things that I would change, but the bulk of the information is somewhat reasonable.

I wouldn't, however, as you said, claim that "we're doing something wrong" if they don't live to be 20. Some may reach that age, but not all. Death prior to 20 years is not solely contingent upon human malpractice or wrongness of care. To make that claim is to commit a hasty generalisation. Genetics play a big part too. Theoretically I should live well into my 80s (possibly 90-100+ with the rate of scientific advancements), but it doesn't mean, despite hoping that I do, that I will.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/105442-goldfish-life-expectancy-other-interesting-observations/

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Salt?! Why are LFS Always big on salt? :(

I really think that aside from the salt the article is pretty nice. At least they mention the use of goldfish specific food, which if a good brand will provide enough protein to sustain the fish without the use of supplements.

We are so spoiled here at Koko 's with all of our knowledge. :teehee

-Using Tapatalk.

The salt is what got me. I have never heard of that. I only use salt if there are particular injuries or health concerns. Double it? So use it all of time and double it in the summer? Interesting approach...

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Again, I'm not suggesting that anyone who loses fish early were negligent! Only that conditions in captivity, particularly in tanks of any size, are perilous. We all know this! Fish in huge ponds are likely to live longer. The closer we can get to that, if we cannot have ponds, the better we have a chance of doing. :)

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I also found it a bit abrasive to say that you're doing it wrong if your fish doesn't live 10 years or more. I thought the rounded average for goldfish lifespans was 5 years? The more hardy breeds might live 10 years or more, with 20 years being pretty good for commons, and the world record of 42 years I believe? At least this is my understanding from all that I've learned.

Well, my current fish are 6 and 4, and I definitely plan to have them around a lot longer! GF can live to 20 years so . . . fact is that if they don't, we're doing something wrong. That doesn't mean it's intentional or neglect--it's just easier to mess up in tanks than ponds (less water so less stable parameters). No one is blaming anyone if something does happen and they die earlier, as long as common sense fish rules were followed. But it IS a fact that GF can and should live a long time. I lost 3 fish at once 6 years ago after we had a problem with the spring and I stopped buying bottled water and went back to the spring too soon. :( That was my fault--I own I.

I have never used bottled water. I have supersaturated gases though and have thought about it a few times. Sounds expensive.

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Like most, I don't think the article is too bad. There are a few things that I would change, but the bulk of the information is somewhat reasonable.

I wouldn't, however, as you said, claim that "we're doing something wrong" if they don't live to be 20. Some may reach that age, but not all. Death prior to 20 years is not solely contingent upon human malpractice or wrongness of care. To make that claim is to commit a hasty generalisation. Genetics play a big part too. Theoretically I should live well into my 80s (possibly 90-100+ with the rate of scientific advancements), but it doesn't mean, despite hoping that I do, that I will.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/105442-goldfish-life-expectancy-other-interesting-observations/

I'm hopeful that the article will shock at least someone into educating themselves on the proper care and keeping of these awesome little guys. I definitely agree with you. Genetics are huge.

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I have never used bottled water. I have supersaturated gases though and have thought about it a few times. Sounds expensive.

Well, obviously. I was using it because my spring was out of commission for four weeks, while they tried to figure out what the problem was (turns out the horses had broken a pipe but it took forever for but bubbas to find it). During that time I was pumping CREEK water into my reservoir so I had something to flush the toilet and shower with.

During that time I had to buy bottled water ($50 a week) for the 55 gallon tank. Yes, it was expensive. Not sure what anyone thinks I should have done otherwise though. ??? I had no choice.

Once they repaired the pipe we let the reservoir fill back up w/ spring water. I should have waited longer than I did. After a week I went ahead and used the water to fill the tank, and all the fish died. :( I assume that there was still some creek water in the system, or that the dechlorinator was unable to deal with the bleach I had to add to the system temporarily to ensure that it was OK for me to drink. Either way, I should have waited another few weeks before going back to the spring water. :(

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I have never used bottled water. I have supersaturated gases though and have thought about it a few times. Sounds expensive.

Well, obviously. I was using it because my spring was out of commission for four weeks, while they tried to figure out what the problem was (turns out the horses had broken a pipe but it took forever for but bubbas to find it). During that time I was pumping CREEK water into my reservoir so I had something to flush the toilet and shower with.

During that time I had to buy bottled water ($50 a week) for the 55 gallon tank. Yes, it was expensive. Not sure what anyone thinks I should have done otherwise though. ??? I had no choice.

Once they repaired the pipe we let the reservoir fill back up w/ spring water. I should have waited longer than I did. After a week I went ahead and used the water to fill the tank, and all the fish died. :( I assume that there was still some creek water in the system, or that the dechlorinator was unable to deal with the bleach I had to add to the system temporarily to ensure that it was OK for me to drink. Either way, I should have waited another few weeks before going back to the spring water. :(

Makes sense. I know there have been a handful of times I've had to shell out some serious bucks to fix a problem, never fun but it's a labour of love;)

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I'm curious about what people thought was good about this article. Frankly, I think the printed information at the big box stores, while far from ideal, is better than this.

  • They should absolutely not be housed in "goldfish bowls." Because they have more body mass per inch of length than many tropical species, goldfish actually need more water and more dissolved oxygen. This means larger tanks and fewer fish than is acceptable for tropical species. Dissolved oxygen is dependent on the surface area of the water, so a bowl is particularly unsuitable because the more water it contains, the less surface area there is.

The first sentence is true. The rest provides no useful info. A five gallon tank should do.

  • Goldfish need cooler water. Their respiration and metabolism are not suited to tropical water temperatures. For this reason, they should not be kept with species that need warmer water.

Goldfish may have the widest temperature tolerance of any fish. They should not be kept with tropicals, but not because the water is too warm.

  • Goldfish grow large when kept properly, so a 55-gallon tank might only hold 4 to 5 adults. They will only grow to become full-sized adults if the tank is not crowded to start with.

The first sentence implies that a 55 gallon tank is usually good for more than 5 adults. The second sentence might be true if "crowded" was defined, simply because if crowded enough they won't last to adulthood.

  • Goldfish are vegetarians and will not do well on high protein diets. In addition to prepared goldfish foods, you can offer vegetable flake foods and frozen peas that are cooked for a few moments in boiling water or in a microwave. Brine shrimp, worms or similar foods, which are high in protein and offer little bulk, should not be included in their diets.

Goldfish are omnivores. Whether they do well on a high protein diet depends on what "high" means. The last statement is wrong.

  • Goldfish tanks should have effective biological, mechanical and chemical filtration, just like with other fish. Regular partial water changes while hydro-vacuuming the gravel are essential.

Hey! They said something true. Too bad they didn't define "regular" and "partial." I think that means monthly and 25%.

  • Another thing you can do to help maintain your pet goldfish in the hot summer months when, at room temperature, your aquarium H2O may reach to the mid 80’s, is to double the amount of aquarium salt normally used to help with their osmotic (ability to effectively remove oxygen) process. We normally use one tablespoon per 5 gallons, doubling this in the summer.

Complete nonsense.

When given correct care, goldfish are, in fact, quite hardy and long lived. If your goldfish aren’t living for 10 years or more, you’re not following the care requirements noted above. Anyone who has seen healthy adult goldfish can attest that the results are well worth the effort.•••

Insulting.

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Why do people insist on labeling blood worms and brine etc as a high protein diet?

People should be aware that by weight, there is a LOT more protein in the pellets, or even the gel food, that is used to feed the fish. 3-6% by weight is NOT high protein, and it never will be.

Of course, if you are talking about freeze dried, then yes, it's VERY high protein, and it's now 60%+ in many cases. HOWEVER, the problems associated with freeze dried foods are not likely to be from the high protein, but from the fact that you are feeding freeze dried.

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Yes, shakaho--those were more or less my feelings as well. It's obviously better than, "Here's a bowl and a fish. Party on!" But this is the best LFS anywhere around here, everyone tells anyone getting fish to go there, and the people who work there are generally pretty knowledgable. So I expected better.

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Why don't you write up a goldfish care guide for them. Try to follow their general format they used and even some of their sentences, but put in the specifics. Then offer it to them.

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Why don't you write up a goldfish care guide for them. Try to follow their general format they used and even some of their sentences, but put in the specifics. Then offer it to them.

I think this is a good idea regardless of which store it would be given to. Maybe a forum-wide collaboration for a pamphlet would be fun and useful?

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It's rather abrasive how they say if your fish are not living for 10 years, you are not properly caring for them! :o

It's kind of true though. There is no reason, with proper care and lack of disease, that a common/comet/single tail variety shouldn't live for 10+ years.

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It's rather abrasive how they say if your fish are not living for 10 years, you are not properly caring for them! :o

It's kind of true though. There is no reason, with proper care and lack of disease, that a common/comet/single tail variety shouldn't live for 10+ years.

You can control for exactly one thing in this list, and that is proper care.

I think it's ridiculous to expect that sort of lifespan. One should always hope, and strive, but to so that there is no reason they shouldn't live that long is actually completely unreasonable.

Why WOULD you expect them to live that long? 10+ years goldfish happen, but they are like 90+ year old human beings. We are exhilarated, amazed, and even a little envious, but we don't all have that, just as most of us won't live to our 90s, despite the thinking that there is "no reason not to."

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