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A hole in Jet's wen


4prettyfish

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If you can view these two short video's first without reading anything below that would be great. This way your conclusion of what you see is what you see and not what I wrote. I want your opinion on Jet's wen. See if it matches up what I wrote. I realize you might not see everything I see in person. Thank you.

http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/4prettyfish/media/9-6-13Holelooksbetter004_zps2554e93f.mp4.html

http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/4prettyfish/media/9-6-13Holelooksbetter003_zpsb20cbc8f.mp4.html

When I fed the fish this morning it looked like Jet's wen has improved.

I should have held him but didn't. That white ring around the hole looks a bit wider but the round hole is now almost like a slit. To me, it looks so much better. I have done no treatments what so ever on him. I did a 90% WC on Wednesday and just added prime. (I did have salt in the tank because I was finishing up a round of prazi and salt. only salt was in the tank on wed. however)

No hole in wen. Just slit. Bigger white ring. It almost looks like tissue/wen is growing over hole, like scabbing for people. Looks like I see some purple/reddish in hole. Looks like I can see an ending almost to the wen or it could just be the sides of the slit. Before the hole looked like a dark hole which I saw no ending.

His appetite was like yesterday. Better. I didn't see him "chopping away". He looked more normal eating like the others.

Before I had this gut feeling something was just "off" with him. I didn't feel this way yesterday and I don't feel this way today.

With all the positives above, I did see him bottom sitting in the back left corner behind a artificial plant first thing this morning. It's been his spot. I don't know if he was actually bottom sitting or just resting, or looking for food. When I approached the tank he came out to greet me. He was begging for food just like the others. To me, He acting more like a goldfish. :) I have my guard up for this not lasting but for now I'm :)

I'd appreciate your opinions on what you see in the video on his wen.

Thank you.

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Here is the video of him eating.http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/4prettyfish/media/9-6-13Difficulteating001_zps416d7dd5.mp4.html

Jet is going to make me crazy of worry. I fed the fish just awhile ago before heading out the door and he started eating strange again. Is this normal? He looks like he's having a hard time. Almost like if we were to chew gum with our mouths open. Do bigger fish eat like this? Are their teeth located wayyyy back and that's why he's doing what he's doing? I'm kind of guessing not on the why part but I do know their teeth are way in the back. It a wonder I didn't see them.

Okay heading out the door but wanted to share this with you. Thank you

Edited by 4prettyfish
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I see the video where the behaviour of concern is. My first thought is that something is stuck in there. I leave the wen concern for those with more experience. Can you check the gills when you get back and see if there is redness at the base of the fin joints?

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what was it that you fed him?

to me, it looked like he's happily chewing away with his teeth. chubber chu sometimes behaves like this when she's hoovered up a largish piece of gelfood and she's nom noming away. he doesn't seem to be stressed at all. just the fact that he's taking his time. mouth movements as displayed usually assist in the teeth doing a better job. but, that motion does appear to be used by Jet for a longer period of time that I have noticed with my fish.

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I've all your vids twice. That chewing motion is not normal to me but the good thing is, your fish is very enthusiastic trying to swallow. Btw what are you feeding him? Try 1/2 a very soft pea and compare, for an oranda this size he should be able to swallow a few peas in succession with difficulty.

Are you able to inspect that hole and his mouth with a strong torch? I remembered you said his gills are ok (nice red color).

For mouth inspection, it's very easy, just cub your fish gently in your palm of your left hand. With his head facing you, slowly bring him towards the surface (~at about 45 deg angle). Once his mouth is out or the water it will automatically opens, then shine torch and have a look. Don't raise him with his eyes/gills out of water as he will definitely struggles.

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I see the video where the behaviour of concern is. My first thought is that something is stuck in there. I leave the wen concern for those with more experience. Can you check the gills when you get back and see if there is redness at the base of the fin joints?

That's what I thought when I saw this odd eating the first time that something was stuck in his throat. But I can see kind of far down (I think) when he's eating. I don't see anything. His gills I believe are okay. Alex had asked a couple of nights ago and I had cked and reported back. Jet seems to be fine after he eats. Thank you for asking the questions.

what was it that you fed him?

to me, it looked like he's happily chewing away with his teeth. chubber chu sometimes behaves like this when she's hoovered up a largish piece of gelfood and she's nom noming away. he doesn't seem to be stressed at all. just the fact that he's taking his time. mouth movements as displayed usually assist in the teeth doing a better job. but, that motion does appear to be used by Jet for a longer period of time that I have noticed with my fish.

I'm so glad that it appears that he is okay then. So you don't think there is something wrong with his jaw or mouth then? He sure is stressing me out. It's like he has no etiquette then. He was eating the small hikari lionhead sinking pellets. Last Friday when he first went into this tank he would grab some food and just chomp away forever. The other two fish were pigs and grabbed the rest. Then after Jet would chew and chew and chew he would then go try to find more food. Well, it was all gone then. This lasted for a few/several days. Now he rushes for food like the others and put lots of pellets in his mouth and still takes forever to chew. I'm glad you don't think he's stressed. I don't think so either. I almost want to laugh when I see him eat. It's kind of comical. But then I don't want to because I think something is wrong with him. What about maybe losing a tooth and another one didn't come in yet? UGHHHH

I finally have the Kanaplex. I have two small bottles of 5g each. It says to put in one level measure with the teeny spoon it came with for each 20L (5 US gallons) I have a 20g qt. I feel stupid asking this but do I put in 4 spoonfuls and mix it into the tank water? Is this hole in his wen contagious? Are the other fish going to be okay because they have been sharing a tank with Jet? Should I treat all the fish? Sorry for all the questions but I just want to try to understand this. I use no filter correct in my qt tank? If I should treat all the fish in big tank do I take filters out? Thanks Helen and whoever else (Alex) should see and read this. Thanks for helping me understand this.

Lastly, No mention of my updated video's from this morning that are posted up above from anyone. I'm kind of surprised. I thought it's looking better. ??

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I've all your vids twice. That chewing motion is not normal to me but the good thing is, your fish is very enthusiastic trying to swallow. Btw what are you feeding him? Try 1/2 a very soft pea and compare, for an oranda this size he should be able to swallow a few peas in succession with difficulty.

Are you able to inspect that hole and his mouth with a strong torch? I remembered you said his gills are ok (nice red color).

For mouth inspection, it's very easy, just cub your fish gently in your palm of your left hand. With his head facing you, slowly bring him towards the surface (~at about 45 deg angle). Once his mouth is out or the water it will automatically opens, then shine torch and have a look. Don't raise him with his eyes/gills out of water as he will definitely struggles.

Hi Jeff, Thanks for taking a look at my thread and video's. He's eating some Hikari Lionhead sinking pellets. They are really small. A torch? I don't know about that. I really don't see anything in his mouth. When he eats he sometimes will look at me while chewing with his mouth wide open. I can see kind of far down and I don't see anything. He seems fine at all other times of the day/evening. Just during eating and perhaps a few minutes after eating. I never really timed it though. I will try the peas tomorrow if that's okay. They ate again when I came home tonight. Unless you really want me to feed him now. I think I'll wait until tomorrow or late tonight when my daughter gets home to help me with a lighter. I don't want to accidently torch the fish. :( Should I go ahead and start the Kanaplex tonight then? I had asked Helen several questions. If you don't mind you can answer them even. Thank you again. Edit: (I said touch earlier. I meant to spell...torch the fish) Edited by 4prettyfish
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Cheryl, we're helping you like this.. the wen ulcer, I will leave it to Jeff and Alex and anyone else who has experience with them since I know little about them :)

anything that I am confident I understand with experience and accuracy, I will answer for you :) so don't worry, ask your questions and those who know best will answer you accordingly :)

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Thanks Helen. Much appreciated. I'll probably start whatever I need to do tomorrow then. I'm waiting for my daughter to come home and then I want to get ready for bed. We have to get up tomorrow morning but I can start treatment tomorrow also. Maybe as early as noon.

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Hikari Lionhead are very hard pellets, maybe that's why his chewing looks abnormal, yeah just try with peas or gel food or something soft and compare. Maybe there is nothing to be alarmed here. As for the wen issue, to be honest I'm not 100% sure if this is an ulcer or not as I cannot get a very good look at it. I've to keep shaking my head too while following your fish...lol

I think for the time being just follow Alex instructions using the Kanaplex.

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Hikari Lionhead are very hard pellets, maybe that's why his chewing looks abnormal, yeah just try with peas or gel food or something soft and compare. Maybe there is nothing to be alarmed here. As for the wen issue, to be honest I'm not 100% sure if this is an ulcer or not as I cannot get a very good look at it. I've to keep shaking my head too while following your fish...lol

I think for the time being just follow Alex instructions using the Kanaplex.

Thanks Jeff. I do soak the pellets for about 20 sec. before dropping them into the tank. The other fish don't do this. I will try the peas tomorrow though. I'm going to wait until tomorrow also and try to get a good photo of his wen. It's a slit now not a round hole. I think I saw like a purple/red on the inside wall of the slit. Before it was just a dark hole that didn't look like it ended to me.

So I guess tomorrow I'll put him in the qt tank with the meds. It's just getting late here. I hope that's okay.

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My Ranchu Tiger has a similar problem, hole in Wen, sunken. still happy, no signs of stress. Tiger is orange so I can see the tissue around it is pink. it would look white on your color fish. Tiger has a great appetite too :)

I treated Tiger originally with betadine swab bi daily over 10 days. The pink color went away and it stopped getting worse.... but he has had a relapse.

If you can find it there is Hikari bio bandage that is a great start for any soft tissue issue and better alternative to betadine. I just cant seem to find it anymore :(

Hi Louise and welcome to Kokos. Sorry to hear you're also battling with an ulcer fish. You should start a new thread at D&D if not, try using this for your fish.

Kenalog in Orabase for mouth ulcers. You can get it from any chemist for about $12.

Edited by RanchuJeff
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Hi Cheryl,

Sorry I haven't been around much, but I am extremely happy to see you are getting world-class help from Helen, Jeff, and Una, as well as others. I've viewed the videos, and my opinion is that the mouth issue is something separate from the ulcer, and it's something that doesn't avail itself to correction or treatment. It's likely a mild collapse of some mouth structure as the result of flukes or some such, and now he is going to have that for the remainder of his life. It's not something to worry though, since he can eat just fine. We DO want to check his mouth to see if there are sores remaining, and also just to keep note to make sure that he gets access to food, since he will be a slow(er) eater.

As for the ulcer, I think it's deep, and would recommend surgery. I'd like for you to work with Jeff and Helen to set this up ASAP, and cut through to the wen tissue to expose the ulcer. Then, you will add some kanaplex directly to the wound. If you don't have Kanaplex by then, we'll use the furan.

As soon as you have the kanaplex, start the waterborne treatment as planned. The Medi-Gold was sent out late in the day today, so hopefully it will get to you by Tuesday at the latest. I do not yet know if I want you to feed the meds just yet, since I am not quite convinced that there is a need for that right at this moment. The priority is to cut into the wen, expose the ulcer, and then treat.

Hang in there. This is probably much more handling of goldfish that you had ever imagined, but I think it will be fine, and new wen will grow in. :)

My Ranchu Tiger has a similar problem, hole in Wen, sunken. still happy, no signs of stress. Tiger is orange so I can see the tissue around it is pink. it would look white on your color fish. Tiger has a great appetite too :)

I treated Tiger originally with betadine swab bi daily over 10 days. The pink color went away and it stopped getting worse.... but he has had a relapse.

If you can find it there is Hikari bio bandage that is a great start for any soft tissue issue and better alternative to betadine. I just cant seem to find it anymore :(

Hi LouiseAnn, welcome! :)

The problem with this strategy is that it only bandages the wound, but does not resolve it. Moreover, it creates a situation where the superficially exposed parts are cauterized from infection, but not the deeper tissue. I think that you might want to consider a similar strategy as what Cheryl is doing.

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Hi Alex. No apologies needed from you. I have the kanaplex now. So you want me to set up the 20g now I will then. Just to let all of you know in case you don't....I'm a paraplegic. Wheelchair user. That's why I wanted the lower tank Alex and stand. I love it so much. I have a lot more independence to my fish and filters now. I feel confident that I can do the surgery. I'll just have to set it all up at the table so I don't have to be wheeling (ha ha) all over the place. What will I need for this? And when will this be done? Is this contagious to the other fish?

What would you like for me to do tonight?

What would you like for me to do tomorrow?

Edit: Don't worry about my disability (wheelchair user) because this was years ago due to a car crash. I'm very independent....for the most part. Gave birth to a baby, can drive, cook....another story. :)

Edited by 4prettyfish
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You don't have to start the Kanaplex until tomorrow. However, if you would like to add it tonight, that's fine. Do whatever makes the most sense. If you are due for a WC tomorrow, then wait. :)

We do want to move along at a brisk pace, but if you feel you are being rushed or panicked, just take a step back. This is important. :)

Helen will be your guide with the actual procedure and anesthesia, since she is extremely comfortable with it now. You are in great hands. :)

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You don't have to start the Kanaplex until tomorrow. However, if you would like to add it tonight, that's fine. Do whatever makes the most sense. If you are due for a WC tomorrow, then wait. :)

We do want to move along at a brisk pace, but if you feel you are being rushed or panicked, just take a step back. This is important. :)

Helen will be your guide with the actual procedure and anesthesia, since she is extremely comfortable with it now. You are in great hands. :)

Alex, Jet has been in the 60g with the other fish. I haven't moved him to the 20g because I don't believe I was asked to and I didn't know. I was waiting on the Kanaplex. Is it one heapful or four that I put into tank?
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Great! Thanks for clarifying :)

Add the Kanaplex to the QT when you have it set up and ready to move Jet over.

Follow the directions on the box in terms of the amount. That's 4 level spoonfuls for a 20 gallon. The spoon is provided with the med. :)

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