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A hole in Jet's wen


4prettyfish

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Jeff, the Kanaplex was chosen because it does have a good half life in water, and tissue absorption rate is very good. So making a paste would definitely be possible.

My only concern about the paste is that it would continue to just fight the top layer of the ulcer, and does nothing to the root, much like the one oranda I had a couple of years ago.

I am not averse to trying that out first though. :)

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Cheryl has a syringe available to her (since we used them to flush gills with during the procedure).. I wonder if the paste can be fed to a syringe and squirted (gently) by entering the nozzle into the cavity? would that be enough to get the medicine in there as deep as the hole is?

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Cheryl has a syringe available to her (since we used them to flush gills with during the procedure).. I wonder if the paste can be fed to a syringe and squirted (gently) by entering the nozzle into the cavity? would that be enough to get the medicine in there as deep as the hole is?

This is a good idea.

The other thing then is that you can seal the hole with denture paste. Mix kanaplex first with some denture cream and then apply to the hole. The paste should stay there for hours and hours I think before melting away.

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Thank you Jeff, Alex, and Helen for helping me and of coming up with an idea of how to help Jet. I appreciate it a lot. I'll of course will make and try the kanaplex paste if that's what you want me to do. But in the long run if you don't think this will resolve the problem way down deep in the ulcer and surrounding areas I'd rather go ahead and do another procedure with the guidance of Helen's help. I normally can have patience but I just want this over. :) I don't want to prolong the inevitable. As much as I don't really want to sedate Jet again I will. Helen was of great help in keeping me calm and all.

Helen, if we do this again we can do a time more suitable to your waking hours :) like we had talked. About 10am your time which would be the day before at 5pm for me.

I was kind of thinking about my tanks this morning and want to run something by all of you please. You know I have two tanks. A 60g with 2 medium Oranda's and a 34g with two smaller goldfish. What if I have all four of the goldfish in my 60g tank along with bringing over the filter temporally? Now I have my 34g. I was thinking of giving that tank to Jet until he's all better. I will not have a filer on the 34. I can also fill the tank up individually the first time with an empty gallon jug so I know where the 20 gallons mark is. This way I'm not going through kanaplex like crazy filling up a 34g tank.

What do you think of this idea?

I do 90% wc's every 5 days on the 60g tank. I'll continue doing wc on the qt tank for Jet every day or every other day at the most depending on water param.

Thanks for letting me run all this by. :)

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:hug

Aww. :)................... :hug

Thank you.

I'm thinking about you and Jet, Cheryl :hug

Again...Aww...thank you................ :hug

Just checking in on you and Jet :) sorry to see things haven't resolved just yet, but you are doing a great job :heart

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you. I'm trying to be patient but not working that great. :hug

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I'm sorry to hear Jet's still not feeling better just yet :(

I do hope you all come up with a solution that will speedy his recovery asap :) hang in there I'm sure it will all work out soon :)

keeping you both in my thoughts ;)

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Thank you so much shellbell. It really does help talking about my goldfish to other goldfish owners. We all love them and understand each other. I've only told one person so far about Jet and how Helen was on Skype helping me out throughout this whole ordeal. I don't think the person really, really, understood everything. It was a huge deal to me. I adore and love :):teehee my pet goldfish and just want to see Jet back into the main tank swimming healthy.

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Cheryl has a syringe available to her (since we used them to flush gills with during the procedure).. I wonder if the paste can be fed to a syringe and squirted (gently) by entering the nozzle into the cavity? would that be enough to get the medicine in there as deep as the hole is?

This is a good idea.

The other thing then is that you can seal the hole with denture paste. Mix kanaplex first with some denture cream and then apply to the hole. The paste should stay there for hours and hours I think before melting away.

Since post op has already been several days, normally it should be under control by now and regeneration of new tissue should also be in progress too but it's not. It shouldn't be red and bleeding now and to con't with the same procedure will not likely to end well.

Using dental paste to add into the kanaplex mix is good idea. It's just like my Kenalog, very thick like refrigerated margarine. I don't think you'll need a syringe to do that . Just use your finger, dip into the k/mix and pick up a small amount and apply several times to fill up the hole. Use a bit of pressure to make sure it goes right to the bottom. While doing that, you should be holding your fish in your other hand with his head just above the water. It's very easy to do and should take less than a minute.

You think you can do that Cheryl?

It's a good idea too to move him to a small tank. It's easier to manage and also save you medicine, water etc.. along the way. I use 3 container sizes...3gal, 5 gal, 8gal to suit various fish sizes and rely on 100% w/cs and new medicine. (Sometimes I even have to do w/cs 2x per day). In general, clean water is very important during any treatment.

Btw what's your water temperature for Jet?

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Hi Jeff, I can give it a try with the denture paste and kanaplex. Can you or someone tell me a name/brand to get. I don't want to mess it up. I want to make sure I get the right kind tomorrow. How do you know how much of each to use? Do you have a recipe of the mixture. (example: 1 part denture paste to three parts kanaplex) So it should not be runny but pasty. Do I mix enough up just for that day or can I mix some up for several days then refrigerate? And I do it twice a day then? What if I do a bad job and it doesn't hold/stay? The hole is pretty small. What if I go to the pharmacy and ask for a toddler medicine syringe thingy? It's smaller then what I have and it might fit into the wen hole then trying to get my finger in it. When I lift Jet out of the water the hole is extremely hard to see. Prior to doing the surgery I was telling Helen I couldn't see it. I had to get Jet right under the light and really try to find it. How long can Jet keep his head/wen out of water to be comfortable? I'll try to remember to keep his gills in the water. Ugghhh. I'm just so frustrated. I feel like I failed him. I should have cut it so much bigger. I wish I could try it again.

Tomorrow I might use a 10g tank then for Jet. When I first bought Jet and he was in qt with prazi I was doing 100%wc daily in the 20g for three weeks with the exception of maybe 3 days that I waited until the next day. I thought it would be easier to use the 20g then a 10g. A 10g you'd think the param could get out of whack faster. And I just didn't like the fact of having a bigger fish in a 10g tank.

I broke the thermometer the other day in his tank but the other two tanks say 80 in the 34g and 78 in the 60g. What would you like the temp in his tank to be?

I'm sorry for all the questions. I just want to make sure about all of this.

Thank you so much for helping me.

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The paste should just be a glob, mixed well with Kanaplex powder. I don't really have a fixed ratio. The last time I did it, I was using oxolinic acid, but in the same way.

Anyway, I just wanted to make it clear, since Helen thought I wasn't being clear enough, that I do not think that this replaces the need for another round of cutting. I am suggesting this as a way to apply antibiotics more directly to the hole, to see if that would help.

Don't be sorry for questions. It's the best way for us to get info to you. :):hug

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Hi Alex. The paste a glob. Got it! But the ratio is more kanaplex and less denture cream, right? I'm still kind of figuring out how much to mix. You know the little spoon that comes with the Kanaplex? Will I take like one spoonful of kanaplex and maybe half a spoonful of denture cream then? I just kind of want an idea? Or will that be too much denture cream. I've never bought denture cream or have seen it before I don't believe. haha What kind do I buy, brand, does it matter?
Thanks for letting me ask lots of questions. But, My other questions weren't answered yet. Please! :D Anyone..... :)

I knew that filling up the wen hole with the kanaplex was to just get the antibiotic to the wound better. But it does sound like your saying Alex that another cutting procedure from you might be recommended because what were going to try now doesn't replace another need for cutting. I think I'm getting confused by what you wrote and what Jeff wrote above. I got the impression that there was not an option for Jet to have another surgery from Jeff. It would be too risky for him. I got the impression he would probably die then. Please someone correct me if I misread all that.

I'll be going to the store sometime tomorrow late morning to get the denture paste stuff and more then likely will be taking the Betta's 10g tank temporally to use for Jet. The betta can go into a 5 1/2 g tank if my daughter can find it in storage or she will go into a 2 1/2 g tank for the time being. I was just going to rinse out the 10g tank with hot, hot, water. Hope that will be enough.

Thanks for helping me with my questions and all. :) I appreciate the :hug from you and everyone else. I don't mean to complain if this sounds like one...but I am somewhat getting tired of all of this. Tired might not even be the right word. Frustrated might be better. Draining might be better. Sometimes I just want to cry. I hate seeing pets not doing good.

Just Added This:

I was cking out how LouiseAnn's fish is doing and saw that Jeff wrote that a heater promotes metabolism and medicine absorption. I yet learned something new again. Should I go ahead and put in a heater if the temp needs to be above 78?

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Hey Cheryl,Please don't panic and rush into doing too many things at the same time. I think, buying and swapping tank thing can always wait. If you felt that the tank that Jet is in now too big,then you can always fill up half the water level or any level you like to make up say 10G. Also don't rinse tank with hot water, it may damage it's silicon, just rinse with household vinegar or bleach or even salt concentrate,

What I would like you to do now is to focus on making the Kanaplex mix and apply onto the hole as quickly as possible. We'll have to assess the results later anyway, so please do not worry about whether he needs to be operated on. Applying the Kanaplex directly onto the wound is worth trying as you can see with LouiseAnn's fish using the Kenalog. Also in dealing with ulcers we have to throw in all options at once as sometimes even the best medicines don't work and we must have a back up plan.

I've not used dental paste before,( but I've used PVA craft glue, super glue) so I think any brand of dental paste will do. What ratio also not important, just use your own judgement, more kanaplex the better of course and as thick as possible. I've already described how to do this earlier today.

If you don't have anything to bind them now, just add a drop or two of water and mix some kanaplex and apply immediately. Please don't delay until tomorrow.

Just relax, you're be alright. ATB

Cheers

PS.If you plan to use a heater , anything between 72 to 80 F is fine.

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Thank you Jeff for the message. I appreciate you going over some/a lot of my concerns. I'm going to wait until the morning to put the kanaplex into Jet's ulcer/hole. The reason why is because it's already really late and I have to get up in the morning to take my daughter and her friend to a school fundraiser. My eye lids are getting heavy. I'll do the water and kanaplex before I leave home in a.m. and stop off at the store to either purchase the denture cream or craft glue/super glue before heading back home. I'll reapply that later in afternoon.

I'm okay. Just concerned with Jet. I sure do appreciate Koko's forum and members. :)

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:hug you're a strong woman Cheryl! I hope the paste works for little jet! :hug

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Cheryl, hun.. you're doing a wonderful job. remember what I told you, keep calm, get everything in front of you within reach. If it's easier for you, use one of those transporting tubs we used during surgery to gently lift Jet out of the water, bring him to your table where the medicine will be ready for administering and in a nice slow pace, start applying. when you've finished applying the meds, just take him back in the same tub and slowly sink that tub back into his tank, water n all :)

if you like and I am online at the time, you are welcome to Skype me :)

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I actually don't want you to use a heater, and that's the reason why I did not suggest it here.

Increasing the temp of the water does increase the fish's metabolism, including that of meds. However, increasing the temp also speeds up the rate at which the pathogenic bacteria are dividing. So, at least for me, it's always a decision to see whether increasing the heat actually will be beneficial to the fish or to the infection. In this particular case, I don't see a benefit to Jet in adding a heater. Unless I am way off base, your water should already be in the 70-80 F range, and at the temp, the metabolism is already working well.

Are you going to do the surgery with, or without Helen, Cheryl?

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:hug you're a strong woman Cheryl! I hope the paste works for little jet! :hug

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Thank you so much. I appreciate the support, encouragement, and the double waam hug. :)

Cheryl, hun.. you're doing a wonderful job. remember what I told you, keep calm, get everything in front of you within reach. If it's easier for you, use one of those transporting tubs we used during surgery to gently lift Jet out of the water, bring him to your table where the medicine will be ready for administering and in a nice slow pace, start applying. when you've finished applying the meds, just take him back in the same tub and slowly sink that tub back into his tank, water n all :)

if you like and I am online at the time, you are welcome to Skype me :)

Thank Helen. :) I'm trying all. See the video below as soon as I get them on here. Self explains. I appreciate your offer to Skype. ....But ck the video's. I think you will be happy. :)

I actually don't want you to use a heater, and that's the reason why I did not suggest it here.

Increasing the temp of the water does increase the fish's metabolism, including that of meds. However, increasing the temp also speeds up the rate at which the pathogenic bacteria are dividing. So, at least for me, it's always a decision to see whether increasing the heat actually will be beneficial to the fish or to the infection. In this particular case, I don't see a benefit to Jet in adding a heater. Unless I am way off base, your water should already be in the 70-80 F range, and at the temp, the metabolism is already working well.

Are you going to do the surgery with, or without Helen, Cheryl?

No surgery Alex. Helen was offering her help on Skype if I needed it to get that kanaplex in Jet's ulcer/wound. Thanks for more info. on heaters. I did not put one in. See my short video's for what I did.

Give me some time to get the short video's up. I will have another one as soon as I upload it. It's about 2 minutes longer with Jet's new "Hospital" home.

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Jet is in small bucket about to get Kanaplex in his ulcer/wound. Showing you Kanaplex mixture w/denture cream and his wen.

http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/4prettyfish/media/9-14-13KanaplexinJetswound002_zpsa6592fa6.mp4.html

Jet's all done. Kanaplex in his wen/hole.

http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/4prettyfish/media/9-14-13KanaplexinJetswound003_zpsc5fb6ad1.mp4.html

Hope this is okay.

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Alex: This evening at 11:30pm it will day 8 of kanaplex. That's the evening I moved him to the 20g qt It was a week ago last Friday. The following Monday is when Helen and I did the procedure on Jet. I don't see any improvement of him bottom sitting though. He did it a lot yesterday. He's kind of doing it now. He is moving in this video though.

This video is a bit backwards as in regards to you should have seen this first and then the other two above to follow.

In this video I'm showing his new home in the "hospital tank". If this isn't going to work please let me know. I'll upgrade to a 10g then.

Some of my talking doesn't apply now because it's after the fact now of putting the mixture of kanaplex in his wen.

One hour later though the stuff came out of him. I thought I put it deep into his wound with the end of the tweezers. I was gently pushing it in. UGhhh

I do see a very tiny red mark. His wen is growing over the cut I made. But under the wen is still red. I saw it. It is red still. Just hard to see because of the lighting and his dark wen. What do I do?

Can someone please tell me how much prime to double dose a 5 1/2 gallon tank also.

Thank you.

Here's video:

http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/4prettyfish/media/9-14-13KanaplexinJetswound001_zpsaeb8d229.mp4.html

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Good job Cheryl. Jet doesn't look so bad. When you said the bottom of the hole is red, does it look raw/bleeds? Or just red around the center?

A few pointers from my point of view.

1) when you are catching/holding...Just use your hand and palm him under his belly, his head facing you. He will struggle less or not at all depending whether his eyes/gills are out of water rather than to use a grip lock type of holding.(he will wiggles a lot and you may accidentally over squeezed him).

2) You should apply the mixture with your clean fingers and gently press the mixture to fill up the hole, Falling off in just after a few hours is no good. You have to keep on doing it to see whether it can stay in there for a day.

3) I don't know whether it's convenient for you by just picking him up from his tank and quickly apply the mixture rather than transfer him to another vessel? It should be a very quick process than takes less than a minute.(minus the mixture preparation part)

I hope that helps.

ATB

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Alex: This evening at 11:30pm it will day 8 of kanaplex. That's the evening I moved him to the 20g qt It was a week ago last Friday. The following Monday is when Helen and I did the procedure on Jet. I don't see any improvement of him bottom sitting though. He did it a lot yesterday. He's kind of doing it now. He is moving in this video though.

Well, the truth is that kanamycin (like oxolinic acid, or any other aggressive broad spectrum antibiotic) is probably making him feel not too happy right now. Think of the times when you've had to take antibiotics. Sometimes they can really take a major toll out of you. The key here is to keep him active, keep his water pristine, and let him and the meds do their work. :hug

This video is a bit backwards as in regards to you should have seen this first and then the other two above to follow.

In this video I'm showing his new home in the "hospital tank". If this isn't going to work please let me know. I'll upgrade to a 10g then.

Some of my talking doesn't apply now because it's after the fact now of putting the mixture of kanaplex in his wen.

I prefer a 10g to something smaller, but that's just me.

One hour later though the stuff came out of him. I thought I put it deep into his wound with the end of the tweezers. I was gently pushing it in. UGhhh

I do see a very tiny red mark. His wen is growing over the cut I made. But under the wen is still red. I saw it. It is red still. Just hard to see because of the lighting and his dark wen. What do I do?

One hour is a decent amount of time. I'd like for you to apply the paste at least once a day, and to make sure there is adequate amount of kanamycin going into the plug. :)

Can someone please tell me how much prime to double dose a 5 1/2 gallon tank also.

22 drops

Thank you.

Here's video:

http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/4prettyfish/media/9-14-13KanaplexinJetswound001_zpsaeb8d229.mp4.html

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