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Is there any relationship between substrate and dropsy?


cmclien

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I wonder if this has been studied or looked at. I have been thinking of removing not all but maybe 2/3rds of my eco complete and just having a small pile/circle under my decorative rock for the goldies to sift through so today I removed half and was APPALLED at what was in it. I must spend 10-15 minutes a week thoroughly vacuuming my substrate. I totally turn it over while I vacuum and my last water change was only on Monday. So much cloudy like material came up while I was getting rid of it that I couldn't help but wonder about bacteria and dropsy and substrate and if there are less occurrences without a substrate even though I love how substrate looks.

I have no idea, just thought I'd throw it out for discussion purposes ;)

Edited by CindiL
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I wonder if this has been studied or looked at. I have been thinking of removing not all but maybe 2/3rds of my eco complete and just having a small pile/circle under my decorative rock for the goldies to sift through so today I removed half and was APPALLED at what was in it. I must spend 10-15 minutes a week thoroughly vacuuming my substrate. I totally turn it over while I vacuum and my last water change was only on Monday. So much cloudy like material came up while I was getting rid of it that I couldn't help but wonder about bacteria and dropsy and substrate and if there are less occurrences without a substrate even though I love how substrate looks.

I have no idea, just thought I'd throw it out for discussion purposes ;)

There is not. I can recount quite a few cases of fish with dropsy with barebottom tanks, just as I can recall cases with substrate. I have not ever done a systematic comparison to see if there is more in one case or the other, but certainly during the last few years handling D&D, no pattern jumped out at me.

The very very important thing to note is that all those cloudy materials are not necessarily bad, and an overly clean tank is not necessarily good.

What I am beginning to suspect is that there is a big relationship between soft (general hardness) water and dropsy, and that one makes much more sense.

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I've always had substrate, and none of my fish has dropsied. And I've seen plenty of fish here get sick in bare bottom tanks. After being on here for years, it is very clear to me that having a bare bottom tank doesn't prevent illness in fish.

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What I am beginning to suspect is that there is a big relationship between soft (general hardness) water and dropsy, and that one makes much more sense.

This is very interesting! Why do you think there is a relationship there? Would love to hear your thoughts.

I thought dropsy was caused by bacteria? in that we treat with antibiotics that seems to "mostly" cure them.

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What I am beginning to suspect is that there is a big relationship between soft (general hardness) water and dropsy, and that one makes much more sense.

This is very interesting! Why do you think there is a relationship there? Would love to hear your thoughts.

I thought dropsy was caused by bacteria? in that we treat with antibiotics that seems to "mostly" cure them.

I will answer the dropsy question first. :)

Dropsy is simply organ failure (kidneys), and there can be a number of causes, including infections (viruses, bacteria, parasites), and non-infections (organ damage, drastic and sudden drops in temperature). Beyond that, we don't know as much, but we do know that metronidazole is the one med that has the highest success rate. Others, such as Baytril, oxolinic acid, and kanamycin sometimes work, but sometimes they can also inflict even more damage on the kidneys. Metronidazole actually is an antibiotic AND an antiparasite med, which treats protozoal microbes. Metro-Meds, which has 3 antibiotics in addition to metronidazole, works even better than metronidazole alone, which lends to the idea that in the majority of cases, dropsy can be attributed to either parasites or bacteria, with the contributions by bacteria being larger.

Why do I think that hardness plays a role in preventing dropsy? Dropsy is the failure of osmoregulation, which leads to accumulation of excess fluids internally. The minerals that raise hardness are primarily calcium and magnesium, and both of these elements are critical in the physiology of the fish. In the context of dropsy, calcium plays a pivotal role in regulating osmoregulatory functions (fluid balances) at the gills. Magnesium is also another critical factor in osmoregulation. Hence, with a sufficient hard water, we supply enough of these important molecules.

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Thanks for explaining that so well! What is recommended in bringing GH up to? About 5 drops or a minimum of 100?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

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Thanks for explaining that so well! What is recommended in bringing GH up to? About 5 drops or a minimum of 100?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

The recommendations in the text books are to have it between 100-150 ppms, although higher isn't bad.

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I can totally relate since Val just had dropsy and i had been using replenish to add back minerals. I had stopped right before leaving for a vacation and left them in very softened water (35?) maybe this is what caused the dropsy in val. With the replenish i added the gh was up to 70-80. I may need to add more. I added 3 capfuls for my 40b

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