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Pinecone, how to change from salt to epsom?


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Ammonia 0.0 ppm now (between 0 and 0.25 ppm before water change)

Nitrite 0.0 ppm (before and after water change)

Nitrate between 0 and 5 ppm

KH 161 ppm

GH 89.5 ppm

pH 8.0

Temperature 80-82º F

Tank: Rubbermaid 7.5 gal. QT (this is only QT available)

How long set up? 2 days.

Heater? Yes.

Airstones: 2

Filter? No; daily 100% w.c.

Water: Conditioned tap (city) water, aged 24 hr.

Occupant: 1 rescue Calico Oranda, ~ 3 inches nose to tail tip

Treatment so far:

Metronidazole (Seachem) in tank water @ 2 scoops/10 gallons

Gradually added salt to tank water, at 0.2% with today's w. c. (digital meter).

Fasted for 48 hours

Today fed blanched fresh (baby) spinach in veg clip

1. History:

A. At LFS the poor fish struggled to swim straight, often drifting around head down or sideways. Moderate fin rot with no redness or other marks. Clear-eyed. Gills normal color. Hard to tell about swelling but seemed plump. Other GF in tank seemed OK. Water was far, far from pristine IMO.

Appealing with pudgy little face and body, a cute Oranda. Felt sorry for the fish's circumstances and apparent brave struggle so rescue.

Working diagnoses on arrival at home: constipation versus poor water quality and/or internal infection/infestation.

B. In QT with clean water seemed to feel a little better. Swimming poorly controlled but better; fish good and active.

Normal green poops after spinach today.

2. Problem:

Noticed pineconing scales after water change just now. Please note this was immediate -- put fish in new water and looked right then. In a hurry to get fish into new water, didn't look closely before water change.

Links to two videos:

1st is seen from above

2nd is from beside tank; translucent plastic tank wall cuts detail

1 still pic (pineconing looks worse in person):

http://s848.photobucket.com/user/taz1107/media/Oranda%207-26-2013/Oranda006.jpg.html

3. Plan at this point:

A. Change to tank water with Epsom salt 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons; no other salt

B. Temperature 80-82º range

C. Continue metronidazole in tank water

D. Immediately begin Metro-Med food.

4. Questions:

How to wean quickest and safest from 0.2% sodium chloride to 0%, and switch to Epsom salt?

Add praziquantel to tank (Prazi Pond Plus powder)?

How to avoid constipation on Metro-Med (Seemingly constipation wasn't the problem since normal green poops appeared shortly after spinach, but idk for sure)

Any other recommendations?

My first pineconing GF to be still active and hungry. Thank God (reverently) that s/he is! Hopefully that means s/he may recover. Thank you very much for your help.

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:hi and thank you for filling everything out so completely.

I would just remove 100% of the water and replace with dechlorinated tap water. Going from 0.2% salt to no salt shouldn't be a huge issue and we want him/her out of the sodium chloride. I would just observe for 30-60 minutes and add the Epsom.

I would not add prazi at this point.

As far as the MMs, you will want to feed 1% of the fish's body weight in MMs and you *shouldn't* have a constipation issue. Do you have a scale that you can weigh the fish? We can let you know how many pellets to feed once we know the fish's weight. :D

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Thank you for fast reply! Thanks also for the feedback about the post. It's taken some practice!

Just now s/he weighed 33 grams. With digital pocket scale 1% of that body weight came to 8 pieces of MM (330-340 mg).

Does that seem correct? Half just went into tank and fish snarfed two of the four right away.

Thanks also for reassurance about constipation.

Off to change water.

The tap water itself is really soft, GH and KH around 17.9 ppm or less. Gold Buffer isn't readily available (but is on order) so tap water usually gets supplemented with Prime, baking soda, Seachem Equilibrium, Seachem Neutral Regulator, Kent Liquid Calcium; and occasionally with Seachem Alkaline Buffer in order to approximate tank pH. Otherwise possibility of pH crash??

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What is your tap pH? Do you have enough aged water to do the WC in QT without significantly dropping the pH?

Using the formula given to me by dnalex, I calculate the number of MMs needed daily to be about 13 pellets. Of course all the pellets are slightly different sizes. Can you do 4 pellets 3 times per day? Or 3 pellets 4 times per day? Either of those would work well. :D

That is really soft water BTW. :o You've done a nice job getting the tank GH and KH up.

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Yes, either 3 pellets four times daily or 4 pellets three times daily. Some days it may have to be 3x. Ideally speaking, would four times a day be better?

Just now confirmed again: KH and GH out of tap is 17.9 ppm or less. Straight from the tap, pH is 8.8 / off the scale!!

There's some water that's been aging for a couple hours (since this morning), pH is about 7.4-7.6. This is typical for aged water from our system. There is enough water for 100% change with QT. Will test pH again and maybe bring up a little closer to tank which was 8. IMO it would be good to lower the tank pH just a bit but prefer to avoid as much as possible stressing the Oranda.

Thank you so much for your help and reassurance.

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Wow that's a high tap pH. GF can tolerate a wide range of pH. Tank pH of 8 is fine, as long as it's stable. (Mine runs at about 8.2 and it's all good . . . :rofl )

Keep in mind it is easier for a GF to go from a lower pH to a higher pH than from higher to lower. And ideally you don't want to change the pH more than 0.5 at once. Like you said the less stress the better.

I don't know that there is going to be a huge difference between feeding 3 or 4 times per day. Once or twice isn't enough but spreading it out over 3 or 4 feedings is great. If you can do 4, wonderful. If not, don't fret. :D

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Noted re number of feedings per day.

After testing a couple more times, it appears something new is up with the tap water pH. It is quite unusually high. But that's why we test, isn't it?

Time for new water conditioning / buffering strategies for the other tanks needing wc's!

After 60 minutes in zero salt, the Oranda is still active and seems unfazed. Will add the Epsom salt at 1/4 teaspoon/10 gallons.

Again, thank you very much.

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What a beautiful Oranda you saved from his past environment. Glad he/she is eating. :) I hope his/her treatment goes well and he/she gets to looking and feeling much, much, better.

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Hello Koko's Forum, thanks to everyone for reading and, if you would, please answer a question -- how soon should Calico Oranda show improvement, if the treatment / antibiotics are right?

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Hello Koko's Forum, thanks to everyone for reading and, if you would, please answer a question -- how soon should Calico Oranda show improvement, if the treatment / antibiotics are right?

It should be within a few days, if not sooner.

Please note that this is about showing signs of improvement only. Complete recovery takes longer. :)

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dnalex,

Thanks for your reply. That's sort of as expected, more or less; with antibiotic or other appropriate therapy the "patient" should stop getting worse within 24 hours and it takes around 72 hours to see definite improvement, you know?

Well, this has been said for certain mammalian bipeds, anyway...

Sadly the poor big (little) rescue Oranda did not make it. 8^( He -- I think, based on pectorals -- was worse yesterday morning...obviously weaker although rallying a bit with a water change, then growing weaker all day until he died about 9 o'clock in the evening.

Do you ever have ideas pop in, that leave you wondering whether they're your cosmic "little bird" intuition or just stupid random impulses? Maybe or maybe not, but sometimes this question gives me serious fits.

Yesterday morning at water change it seemed maybe there was just a whiff of gram-negative aroma; you know, like GI flora, bringing up the question of a quick change from Metro-Med to Medi-Gold. Then the Greek chorus chimes in, "You know you shouldn't switch antibiotics willy-nilly; give them time to work" etc. etc. The poor Oranda had rallied just a bit and getting some Medi-Gold into him quick might have helped...

In the afternoon, by the time even the Greek choristers couldn't claim things weren't bad, the poor little fish was beyond saving.

Oh, well...chances are that if he crashed that quickly, a few hours of different-spectrum oral antibiotics could not have helped. The small amount of Baytril on hand was cloudy and unusable. [Edit: btw he was producing ammonia the entire time so I'm guessing his swelling/dropsy signs were from infection not kidney failure]

Thank you to you and everyone who read and offered help. Koko's GFF is pretty new to me, but the Forum culture of insisting on accuracy, thoroughness, and precise detail sure is feeling nice...

Edited by Steve1107
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Hi Steve,

I take from your response that you are acquainted with medicine, if not very well acquainted. I have found that in general, the principles that guide the bipeds usually work for fish as well. Certainly, if you are not seeing improvements in the first few days, then chances are incredibly high the meds are not working.

I'm sorry the fish didn't make it. I wish we could have helped him. :(

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dnalex,

Guilty as charged.

Thanks again for trying to help save the little fish. We all did our best. At the LFS his chances would have been zero, though, I'm thinking...

For best results you just have to have a culture, stain, smear, or other definite organism ID, don't you?

Next goal: a vial of Baytril on hand -- not just a pre-measured syringe. A not-so-hot microscope is available, although sadly it prob. couldn't resolve bacteria.

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Surprisingly, we've gotten some pretty good success with just being able to look at the set of symptoms, and going from there. For future reference, if you can get these medicated pellets from goldfishconnection.com, it will be very useful

Metro-Meds (best dropsy treatment around, plus for other things): metronidazole, oxytetracycline, and Romet B

Medi-Gold: kanamycin, oxolinic acid, and Romet B

Both should keep for at least a year if stored properly.

We've had varying success with Baytril, but it's definitely nice to have.

We only resort to waterborne treatments when the fish are not able to eat, and for that kanaplex and metronidazole are very useful.

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