Jump to content

Assistance Needed before Pineconing gets too Bad!


Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

Before I begin...

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 1ppm today (4ppm 2 days ago)

* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0ppm today (0ppm 2 days ago)

* Nitrate level(Tank) 10-20ppm today (off scale high 2 days ago... looked like a glass of Merlot)

* Ammonia Level(Tap) not tested

* Nitrite Level(Tap) not tested

* Nitrate level(Tap) not tested

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) not tested

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) not tested

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Master Freshwater Drops

* Water temperature? 74*F

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 46g, 2-1/2 years

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 3 Whisper 30i (in tank version)

* How often do you change the water and how much? 80% twice in 2 days.

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 65% today

* How many fish in the tank and their size? 3, 5-6inches

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime

* What do you feed your fish and how often? ProGold 2x day (Fast on Saturdays, 1 feeding on Sunday nite)

* Any new fish added to the tank? no

* Any medications added to the tank? no

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Prazi, full rounds 2 years ago

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? one fish has slight pineconing

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? nope, behaving normally since the wc's began.

Monday morning I noticed my 3 orandas hanging in a corner, not bottom sitting, but definitely not swimming about normally. Monday nite I checked levels and my ammonia and nitrAtes were WAY high (numbers stated above). 90 % WC immediately. This brought it down to Ammonia 1ppm and a normal 10-20ppm for nitrAtes. (During this time nitrItes were all 0).

I did an 80% wc yesterday (forgot to take readings).

Today, ammonia is still at 1ppm and nitrAtes 10-20. A 65% wc is currently underway.

Well, Mister Pigg, my red-cap, was looking very round yesterday but no signs of problems. Today she's pineconing slightly on her right side.

My dilemma is that I'm set to go on holiday in 2 days and will be gone for a week, so my treatment options are limited to the next 72 hours. I need to get some level of stability in place before I go.

I usually have an extra filter running so I can do an instant quarantine tank, but that filter no longer functions. Can't run an unfiltered qt since I'm going to be gone and can't do the requisite wc's.

What say ye?

I know where this likely generated from. I experimented with making my own filter using an 800gph pond pump and a pvc pipe filter system of my own design. Clearly, it was a miserable failure in the biological filtration department. It held the tank levels normal for a few days, then I got lazy and stopped testing and wc's. Chances are the ammonia and nitrAtes were too high for nearly 3 weeks. I pulled this DIY filter out on Monday when I discovered the high readings.

Oddly enough, the puppies behavior has been normal (until this past Monday). Fins up, swimming about, rooting in the gravel and refusing to leave the few silk plants in the places I put them. Their behavior returned to normal after the Monday wc. Even now, Mister Pigg is swimming about and eating like nothing is wrong. I will say she's very darty though... almost like she's flashing, but she's not rubbing up against anything. I've never pinned too much on this behavior as she's been that way since I got her.

I'm mad at myself for the filter experimentation and even more frustrated that I'm going to have to leave for 7 days.

I have some pics of Mister Pigg that I will upload/post within the next hour or two.

Edited by Bengoshi2000
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

We will need your tap levels to prescribe any help. Even with the filter you added on, that does not mean you shouldn't do water changes. That is why your levels went up like that. The pictures will also help. If it happens that your fish does need to be QT'd, then you will need an extra filter and tank, or if you have 2 tanks, you could do daily 100% WC's by switching the fish to the other tank and emptying the one he was in and then rinsing and filling it and de-chlorinating it again. That is an easy way to make sure your fish has freshwater everyday :). But please again, we need the levels and pictures. :) I'm sorry this is happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Also, what is really important is that with that kind of parameters, I'm afraid treatment won't be very effective. We need to have no ammonia or nitrite toxicities at all times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Also, what is really important is that with that kind of parameters, I'm afraid treatment won't be very effective. We need to have no ammonia or nitrite toxicities at all times.

I'm wondering if it's 1ppm coming out of the tap? A 90% WC should have eradicated all of that ammonia, if not all most of it, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Generally if there is ammonia in my tank when I do a giant water change the ammonia level goes down. I am also wondering if there might be a higher ppm of ammonia in the tap water than in mine or yours mikey. Having the test results of the tap would be a great help to Alex in this situation I am led to believe but I'm going to leave that all to him (; Seeing as I'm not experienced enough to help in this department.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Also, what is really important is that with that kind of parameters, I'm afraid treatment won't be very effective. We need to have no ammonia or nitrite toxicities at all times.

I'm wondering if it's 1ppm coming out of the tap? A 90% WC should have eradicated all of that ammonia, if not all most of it, right?

I don't know...not necessarily.

Good thing we don't have to wonder. We just have to check the tap parameters. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Correct me if I am wrong but a 90% water change would reduce the ammonia percentage by 90% IF the water returned to the tank was ammonia free. Looking forward to the test results and seeing what follows.... Best of luck to you. You are in good hands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Correct me if I am wrong but a 90% water change would reduce the ammonia percentage by 90% IF the water returned to the tank was ammonia free. Looking forward to the test results and seeing what follows.... Best of luck to you. You are in good hands.

Yes, you would be correct. It there is no ammonia in the tap, there might have been 10 ppm ammonia in that tank prior to WC. That number is extraordinarily high, but not unheard of.

There could also be tap ammonia.

Whatever the case, we will find out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

What medications do you have on hand?

Do you have anyone that is able to do water changes etc. while you are gone?

do you use cartridges? If so how often do you change them? (trying to figure out why your tank is not cycled if it has been up and running for 2.5 yrs?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

My theory is that my DIY filter (installed in late May and now removed) interfered with the cycle. The cycle didn't totally crash as my nitrites are have held at 0 and my nitrAtes have stabilized at 10-20. Ammonia seems to be coming down as well. At least I had the forethought to use the media from my Whisper filters in my DIY so some of the BB would survive. One good decision in a bucket full of bad ones...

I don't have anyone that can do wc's while I'm gone. My Dad (who's 75) is on tap to feed them, but doing daily wc's just isn't physically feasible for him.

No meds on hand other than prazi and some jungle fizz tabs. I'm more than willing to pick up whatever (including rush ordering some Medi Gold if need be). I may even have some epsom salts around here somewhere.

Edited by Bengoshi2000
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

He put in a new filter...

Not quite...

One of my Whisper 30i's stayed in the tank for the DIY experiment (and is still there). I used the media from my other two Whisper 30i's in the DIY filter in hopes that it would help the BB get established. When I took the DIY filter out, I put the media back into the 30i's with new filter pads and re-installed both in the tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Maybe you can put your pond pump in, and have a silicone hose attach to it, to drain the water. That way your dad can do a few easy changes, while you're away?

If you need clarification, just ask. I drain my tank with pond pumps all the time. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Maybe you can put your pond pump in, and have a silicone hose attach to it, to drain the water. That way your dad can do a few easy changes, while you're away?

If you need clarification, just ask. I drain my tank with pond pumps all the time. :)

I do as well :D Good thinking Tammy :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Tank readings this morning are:

Ammonia .25 ppm (maybe less... The color is between 0 and .25, but closer to .25).

NitrIte 0

NitrAte 10-20

Regarding wc's while on vacation, it's truly not going to be possible for my Dad to do any. The pump idea is a good one, but I have a python (and it doesn't get much easier than that).

Since my water quality issues appear to be waning, can we re-focus the discussion on treatment options for the dropsied fish?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Supporter

dropsy treatment requires a fish to be isolated in a minimum 10 gallon tank/tub with heater & air wand/stone as well as a heater, but daily wc's of 80-100%.

treatments will encourage retained fluids to exit the fish's body at a fast rate. to keep the water healthy & bacteria free, the water needs to be changed daily. do you think your dad can manage daily wc's on a 10 gallon tank?

not forgetting, that you do need to pinpoint where this problem is coming from where it concerns the set up of the main tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

You should order metro meds from goldfishconnection before you leave so that you have them when you arrive back.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to come up with a viable treatment plan at the moment due to the fact that you are leaving for a week, the tank is not fully cycled, and there is no one available to do water changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I'm not trying to be obstreperous about a qt and water changes, but truly I'm stuck on that particular front. I can continue to do wc's on the tank until saturday morning, but I won't be able to resume water changes or get her into my qt until late evening on July 13.

As far as pinpointing the problem in the tank, I'm confident that the cycle problem was my DIY filter which has now been removed. Everything was fine (parameters maintained a consistent 0/0/10-20 and have been for the 2+ years the tank has been running) until I decided to get creative with my filtration. Word to the wise, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it until it is."

So let's cut to the quick, at this point that the only steps I can take are:

  1. continue wc's while I can
  2. order the MM's
  3. have the parental unit start feeding the MM's when it arrives
  4. cross fingers
  5. pray

I certainly wasn't looking for a "magic bullet" that would cure the fish and eliminate the consequences of my own stupidity, but I was hoping for something more.

Let me ask this: Given the photo of Mister Pigg (and I can provide more if need be). What do you think the chances are she will survive until July 13 with the plan outlined above? Because, honestly, I'm not interested in putting her through 8-9 days of increasing suffering, especially if there is a good chance she will die before I get back. Nor do I want her to survive the week but experience such internal damage such that her QoL will be terribly diminished. She deserves better than that.

Edited by Bengoshi2000
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Supporter

not sure what the chances of survival are.. but i can tell you that if anything came from that filter, it would have affected all your fish and the pinecone would be even, all over the body, bloat behind gills etc. but, just one seems to have an issue.. and even more so, an issue on one side of the body..

to mind, i see it can be a few problems..

1. the obvious to you, that you state - the DIY filter.

however, given the photos & symptoms i and a few others on the moderating team as we do discuss over in the mod forum most cases...2. seem to think that there is a parasitic influence causing a secondary bacteria.

given that you are unable to do daily wc's and the fact that your other fish should not be exposed to uneccessary meds... we're stuck. unless you have a qt that you can add cycled media to. here is how symptoms of dropsy is treated.

1. have 10 gallon tank/tub with heater, aeration.

2. daily WC's

3. epsom salt 1/4 teaspoon for every 10 gallons

4. metromeds to be fed at 1% body weight daily.

there is no cutting corners. dropsy can be fatal unless properly treated. the correct method is advised in points 1-4.

^ this works.. see what you can arrange.



in addition to this, i recommended parasite treatement such as prazi, to which we all understood would be a wise treatment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

just to be clear, only the affected fish should be fed MMs, this may be difficult for your parents to do without having mister piggy in a QT container, so MMs may need to wait until you get back unless you have a tank divider or something your parents could use to separate mister piggy from the rest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...