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arethusa

Please:After antibiotic and fungal treatment all Large goldfish at bottom of tank

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Tank size: 75 gallon tank

Light: fluorescent plant light with hood always kept open

Filter: Marineland 350 Magnum canister filter

Bubblers: Two long bubble rods that together stretch the length of the tank have LED lights.

gravel substrate

We have well water that has a constant ph of 6.1. We have an iron filter on the well.

Current ph is : 6.4

use API ph test kit

Current ammonia level is approx. .15

use API ammonia NH3/NH4+ test kit.

Nitrates: Update: took water to petstore and they used a stick test for a wide variety of water issues and nitrates are currently at safe levels

Current temp is 73.5 degrees F, average temp 72 degrees F. We have air conditioning.

Goldfish foods: API premium pellets for all goldfish varieties sinking pellets

Omega One Natural Protein formula

Peas

fed once a day

Only constant tank additive: is ph UP at recommendation of pet store

Update: Added Aquarium salt this afternoon for the first time at the recommended box dosage of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons for a total of 14 tablespoons. Fish still in same state as described here but activity level is a little more active sporadically.

Goldfish: Currently have 3. Never more than 4.

1. one orange and white comet size 10inches female ( have had for 3 years)

2. one black moor 6 inches male (have had for 3 years) has displayed breeding tubercles on pectoral fins.

3. one brown (purchased as fancy: has excess nostril development like a pompom, has a body and fins like a veil tail but also has a wen , is 6 inches male (11 months purchased with orange fancy). has displayed breeding tubercles.

4. One orange fancy same appearance as brown fancy 6 inches female deceased approx. 2 months ago. Fish had been mostly floating at the top for about 3 months but still able to get down to the bottom to feed. Fish had experienced digestive problems since purchase. Bloating after eating -relieved by feeding peas. (never any pine cone appearance or skin issues or fin rot) (both fish when purchased had a beautiful healthy appearance with good activity and appetites)

Current problem is that all three fish are bottom hanging with fins up. Moor now has clamped fin. This has never occurred before. Little to no activity.

Recent health issues and general background.

The moor seems to have a few birth defects. He was bought rather small and his one eye very slowly grew to be larger than the other. Over the last year his gills have fanned out to appear to be larger than what the fish should have. His other problems have included an excessive slime coat at times. He also has had a problem a few other times where he develops tiny pinholes in his top fin only. Never observed on other fish.

A few days ago my moor suddenly had a tail that had started to go clear on the bottom and both top and bottom had fin rot with a slight white edge. Both pectoral fins had a white (no threads, no hairy appearance) smooth buildup where they joined the body. Fins rapidly started to rot with the spines exposed. The next day the top fin started to erode. At the same time he appeared to have issues on his belly with the smooth white buildup or fungus.

The large comet has been laying eggs repeatedly over the last 6 months. All eggs that were still in the tank after cleaning, filtered or eaten turned white w/in 24 hours. She has always seemed to be sensitive to higher nitrate levels, which cause her to hang at the bottom w/o clamped fins until a partial water change brings the levels down. Her only apparent other problem is in the last year she may have one or two veins that become prominent in her tail for a time and then recede. Good consistent eater, beautiful fins, good movement.

The brown fancy has always seemed to be extremely resilient w/ no apparent health issues. Good eater to piggish, good fins, good body, good activity always.

Treated the tank with A.P. I. Erythromycin and followed the box instructions correctly, including water changes. (Treated for 70 gallons) Ammonia never got over .25 . During these medication treatments I installed a scrubber cartridge so that there was no active filtration going on.

The moor's eroding fins stopped, but the white buildup on the inside of his pectoral fins increased, and looked like blobby thin threads about 1/4" inch trailing as he swam. No white on tail.

Treated the tank with API fungus cure, followed box instructions correctly, including water changes(Treated for 70 gallons) Ammonia never got over . 25

During the first day after the medicine addition, moor's white on belly disappeared, fin whiteness retracted to connection of fins only. On the third day, the fin whiteness grew again, with trailing 1/4 " threads. Not anchor worms, no forked heads(with magnification).

Brown fancy grew a white spot on his wen-but may be growth. No other spots showing.

Last night I preformed the final 25% water change and went back on the regular charcoal filter. Afterwards added ph Up.

This morning the comet was oriented toward the top at a steep angle with head up for 20 minutes. Then she went down to the bottom where all three were hovering at the bottom of the tank. Their fins are not clamped. The ammonia tested out to .25. I fed the fish sparingly. The comet and moor ate but not the brown fancy(first time I have ever seen this). After the water change I added ph UP for 70 gallons.

The water change brought the ammo level down to between 0 and .15. They are still at the bottom with their fins up.

Further background: Originally had the three original goldfish in a smaller tank with a bio filter. The two above with a veil tail. All were about 3 inches long and grew. The veil tail died two months after purchase. She had no outward clinical signs and died within two days of beginning to bottom hang.

I changed to the 75 gallon tank and new filter last year and two months later after the tank stabilized with no problems purchased the other two goldfish. I have had periods of having nitrate build up through out the times I have owned the fish. It has never been over 1.00- only three times in three years) I test the ammonia every day and try to keep it between 0 and .25 with 20% partial water changes once a week. I take any algae off the glass once a month with a sponge or magnetic brush.

I purchased a large hollow artificial log water feature six months ago and added some marimo moss balls. The fish would occasionally nibble at them and a few fell apart. I went to a plant florescent light bulb. I had an episode where when I took the log out to scrub algae off, there was putrid dark water inside that smelled of rotten eggs. I came spilling out of the holes and turned the tank water murky. I rinsed out the log, and preformed partial water change until the murk subsided. There was no fish problems at that time. I cleaned the log more frequently and removed the logs with bags over the holes just in case.

About a month ago the moss balls started to go brownish, and the log was filled with putrid water again. We removed the log with no murk transferred to tank and decided to keep it out- permanently.

When I added the scrubber filter prior to adding the antibiotic, I removed the marimo moss balls and threw them away. When we took the scrubber filter out yesterday it was full of quarter inch long hairs, like the moss ball's hairs.

I am worried that all three fish are bottom hanging and grouped together and definitely seem to be in distress. I am open to any and all suggestions.

Their current appearance is that the white threads on the moor have gone but he still has that white build up on the place where his fins join his body, and he has developed excessive slime coat in the head area. Except for the pinholes in his top fin, the fin rot has stopped and not resumed. He now has clamped fins.

Update: Now the moor no longer has the white threads on the underside of his pectorals .

The brown fancy has excessive slim coat buildup on his head( a first) and that white spot on his wen is still there with another smaller one just showing up w/in the last two hours..

Update: The brown fancy seems to be in the most distress. Listless and still not much movement.

The comet is just down at the bottom.

Update: The comet is the most active dividing her time nudging the males on the bottom at either side of the tank. She nudges each one and then sinks back down to the bottom.

UPdate: Now this evening I have purchased a UV filter. The tank is getting a little cloudy.

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You treated your main tank with meds?, you know that can disrupt your cycle and lead to ammonia problems?.

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Hi, I'm very sorry you are having issues!

That pH is far too low for goldfish, and you probably will be registering a low KH as well. Bicarbonate soda will bring that pH up slowly as well as the KH which will keep it stable. You can add it at a dose of 1tsp bicarbonate soda per 10 gallons of aquarium water. When doing water changes, you will need to add this to the new water at the correct dosage every water change. That will keep the pH up where it should be and stable. Alternatively you can also use seachem gold buffer.

With your water changes, try increasing to 50%-60% weekly. 25% water changes really do not allow for much waste removal, and thoroughly vacuuming the substrate is very important to remove waste as well as decrease the build-up of bad bacteria. This will also help keep your nitrates at a safe level (should not exceed 40ppm before a water change)

In a cycled tank you should not have an increase of ammonia during the week. Some medications can affect the cycle, and cleaning it too often can also cause some damage.

Could you please provide the nitrite and nitrate levels for your tank? Liquid test kits are much more accurate, and will be cheaper in the long run.

When adding the salt, was this dissolved prior? I am not sure if API aquarium salt recommends it is dissolved prior, but it should be before adding.

Could you also provide pictures of the fish/tank set up, or even a video would be great.

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Only thing I would say.. If you raise the pH/kH in your tank.. Please do it slowly

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Only thing I would say.. If you raise the pH/kH in your tank.. Please do it slowly

Bicarbonate soda will raise it quite slowly when dosed at the level I recommended

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Thank you for your replies. I hope to post photos by this morning.

Thank you Au-fish. Yes. I did add antibiotics to my main tank. I gave away the components of my hospital tank to friends in need after Hurricane Sandy who were trying to sustain their fish in buckets. I didn't replace the tank or filter and hope that my pets are not paying the price for my negligence.

I know that I have interrupted the cycle and would appreciate any advice on how to recycle the tank with minimum stress to the fish.

Again, thank you.

Thank you Narny105 and FlipsHere.

In our area the water is acidic and is a natural feature of the ecosystem. Thank you for your suggestions. The fish have lived with the water at about 6.4 for years and thank you for pointing this out to me that this may have taken a toll on their general condition during this time. Do you have any further suggestions on reducing their current stress? Causes? Recycling the tank? Any help that you can provide is welcome.

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Arethusa,

Can you give some more information about why the erythro was given and for how long. Were all fish treated?

I think that people here are leaning towards the ph being a problem, possibly coupled with poor water chemistry as a result of the antibiotic treatment effecting your cycle. Our Mods will probably also want a picture or video to better assess the behavior.

I too have a low ph (although more like 6.6/6.7) but it is very stable at that level. We may want to look at ways to raise the ph in a longer term and more substainable manner but again, I defer to those with more experience with substances liked crush coral and the like.

Hope your fish are soon better.

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I too have a low ph (although more like 6.6/6.7) but it is very stable at that level. We may want to look at ways to raise the ph in a longer term and more substainable manner but again, I defer to those with more experience with substances liked crush coral and the like.

I actually have very soft water but a pH of 7.8 out of my tap. I use crushed coral to harden the tank water to keep the pH at a strong 7.8 otherwise it crashes to below 6.0 after just a few hours. :o

I was going to ask if maybe crushed coral would be a better fit for a long term solution? The only thing is her pH out of the tap is so low that a buffer could still be needed for WCs anyways as the shock in pH difference could be too much? I'm not sure how all this works but would love to know!

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Crushed coral or a buffer are two alternatives that depends on the OP. I prefer to use bicarbonate soda (or an alternative bicarbonate-based buffer) because it is cheap, and does not take up room in my filter which I would prefer to use for other mediums. It's really personal preference, but both are good long term solutions. Provided you can get a stable pH anywhere around 7.0-8.3 then that will be fine.

Either way, water changes no more than 50% with a pH difference that large is a lot better than over 50%-60%. There won't be much shock to the fish either using coral or bicarbonate soda (both will take time to adjust the pH).

If you would like to see how much your pH will change having different tank and tap pH values, you can use this formula: This will give you a safe idea of how much water you can remove without changing the pH by more than 0.5ppm

0.5/(pH difference between tap and tank) x100

It's important to get the rest of your water values and answer the questions that have been asked in previous posts, please :) You might just have a cycle bump from using the medications, but you've only supplied the ammonia and pH values.

Edited by Narny105

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Great discussions going on in this thread! Nice job, everyone! Please continue to help the OP! :)

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Have you ever treated for flukes? It might be a good idea to.

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Have you ever treated for flukes? It might be a good idea to.

Mikey, once there is a member of a mod team monitoring the thread, let the coordinate the treatments, OK? :)

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Have you ever treated for flukes? It might be a good idea to.

Mikey, once there is a member of a mod team monitoring the thread, let the coordinate the treatments, OK? :)

Okay :)

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http://gallery.njpineways.com/p332052019

Please click on the above link or cut and paste the link and go to this site to view the photos of my 3 goldfish and tank. If you click on the photos after you open the gallery you will see the title and caption appropriate to the photo.

Please IGNORE the invitation to buy. I didn't know you needed a website to upload photos and after reading your instructions, had to use my photo site so you could see these photos.

I am so appreciative of your attention to my goldfishes health and their current problems. I have tried to upload a video, but my internet connection is too slow to handle the file. We are trying to rectify this problem ASAP.

In the meantime we are purchasing a master test kit now to take accurate and comprehensive test readings to aid you in your recommendations.

A word re; water acidity. We have outdoor goldfish in small ponds on the property and have bio filters and small fountains in the ponds that they overwinter in . They are all fine with no additives. In our ignorance they have been lucky! The biggest horror with them was the northern watersnake that slipped under a screen and ate some very large comets.

Our fish in the tank- are exclusively indoors.

This forum is wonderful. I hope you can help me get my fish off the bottom. They are a part of our family and very cherished.

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One hint: After going to the link, click on the slideshow option in the top right hand corner. This will give you a quickview of both the photos and the captions. Again: Please disregard sale option. This website was used because the upload hints said to use a website to post photos and link to it.

Thanks so much.

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You have a very pretty trio of fish and I hope they all feel better soon. You're in great hands here!

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Crushed coral or a buffer are two alternatives that depends on the OP. I prefer to use bicarbonate soda (or an alternative bicarbonate-based buffer) because it is cheap, and does not take up room in my filter which I would prefer to use for other mediums. It's really personal preference, but both are good long term solutions. Provided you can get a stable pH anywhere around 7.0-8.3 then that will be fine.

Either way, water changes no more than 50% with a pH difference that large is a lot better than over 50%-60%. There won't be much shock to the fish either using coral or bicarbonate soda (both will take time to adjust the pH).

If you would like to see how much your pH will change having different tank and tap pH values, you can use this formula: This will give you a safe idea of how much water you can remove without changing the pH by more than 0.5ppm

0.5/(pH difference between tap and tank) x100

It's important to get the rest of your water values and answer the questions that have been asked in previous posts, please :) You might just have a cycle bump from using the medications, but you've only supplied the ammonia and pH values.

Ah okay! I have the coral in my substrate and then if it ever needs replacing I have a giant canister so I don't mind the coral being there :) I also don't want to have to add something every WC because I know I'll forget. Different perspectives :D

That formula is pretty cool!! Never knew about it :)

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readings with API Freshwater Master Test Kit:

pH: 6.6 w/no additional additives

Ammonia(NH3/NH4+): .25ppm

Nitrite(N02-):0ppm or just a hair darker light blue not straying into any shade of violet on the color chart

Nitrate(No3-): between 10-20ppm

A curious thing happened. I turned off all the filtration and bubble filters to see the effect of that. Within 3 minutes of disconnection, the fish rose and started cruising mid tank, with no effort or return to the bottom. The effect was rather startling, to go from bottom hanging fish to normal activity. What is odd though is that prior to the fin rot on the moor, the level of surface agitation didn't seem to be a factor. WE have turned down the filters to a slightly lower level and for a half hour they have maintained activity. I hope this will continue.

Concerned about raising the pH level safely and keeping that easily and w/o shocking the fish.

Also concerned about the moor's issues and the brown "fancy"'s wen if it is growth or not and getting the tank cycled, and keeping the ammonia down instead of the yo-yo-ing situation.

Thank you in addition to the previous thanks, Mernany(your fish are beautiful) and Chai.

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dNalex:

Thank you for taking an interest in this thread. I wanted you to know that the meds were solely my idea, based on the moor's appearance- with the rapidly eroding tail fin ( he lost about 10% tail fins in 2 days), and the large vein in the comet's tail and her beginning to bottom hang. I followed with a fungus cure because while the tail erosion on the moor halted, the white blobs on his pectoral fins near the gills started to build up again- as it is doing now- by afternoon it has generated a small dangling area. No more fin rot except for the residual pin holes.

Again: they have only received medication one prior time and that was tetracycline followed by a fungus cure at the recommendation of a knowledgable pet store employee. He stressed water quality and vigilance as primary to fish health w/o additives or meds unless necessary.

He had also recommended the pH Up but I find that I can't get it much over 6.4 w/this and then it starts to get more acidic again sliding down w/o more. I have been so concerned about shocking the fish.

I am so thankful for the existence of this thoughtful and knowledgeable website.

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The "Brown fish" is a chocolate oranda :). And it looks like wen growth to me. For the moor, I'm not entirely sure, I have a clue, but I am going to wait for a mod :).

Edited by mikeydude319

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:hi

Thank you for testing your tank params with your test kit.

Can you also test your tap params for us? This will tell us about the pH and how to safely address it.

Here is a water change flow chart and here is a table on how to use baking soda to alter your pH. :)

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I would have to say that once you get this ph under control the fish will feel alot better :)

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My experiences with trying to alter the Ph of the tap water usually resulted in Ph levels that changed rapidly. I decided that the wrong Ph was better then rapidly changing Ph levels.

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Thank you mikeydude319. Your pets are beautiful.

In addition we have just made two real short videos available available on the gallery link above as per a prior request.

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My experiences with trying to alter the Ph of the tap water usually resulted in Ph levels that changed rapidly. I decided that the wrong Ph was better then rapidly changing Ph levels.

Problem with a ph lower than 7.0 is that it will burn the fish :o

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