Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Steve1107

Please help little Kosmo, sudden weakness after ?lethargy

Recommended Posts

  • * Ammonia Level 0-0.25 ppm
  • * Nitrite Level 0
  • * Nitrate level 10 ppm
  • * Ph Level, Tank 7.4-7.6
  • KH = 3 drops, GH = >11 drops
  • * Ph Level, Tap 7.2-7.4
  • KH tap = 1-2 drops GH = 2-4 drops; Ammonia = 0.-0.25 ppm tap water, a new thing
  • Other Required Info:
    • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
    • * Water temperature? 78 deg F
    • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 28 qt Rubbermaid Quarantine Tank; 7 weeks, started with cycled media and Safe-Start when Kosmo came home w/us
    • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aqua-clear Power Filter 20
    • * How often do you change the water and how much? 50% each week
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?today 50%; yesterday and day before, 50% each.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 Calico Telescope fancy goldfish, about 2 inches nose to tip of tail
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime; aquarium salt, Epsom salt, Seachem Equilibrium, Neutral Regulator, Alkaline Buffer
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? 1-2% body weight in homemade gel food or Hikari Lionhead 1x per day
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? Negative -- Kosmo IS the new fish
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Prazi Pond Plus 5 mg/L added today; Baytril solution 0.5 mL by mouth yesterday and today
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. 2 treatments with Minn-Fin first week we had him; has been at Aquarium salt 0.15-0.20% the entire time.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • One wonders if belly is a little more bulgy on one side, but it's not excessively soft or firm. Thin stringy white poop yesterday (poop was normal thickness, green like food about 3-5 days ago). No other visible changes. Gills pink to light pink, maybe anemia color?(haven't seen anemia gills before).
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?
  • Over last 7-10 days has been spending more and more time on bottom. Changed water 2 days ago and then when we got up yesterday, the poor little guy was on the bottom, too weak to hold himself up straight, tail tends to be bent to one side.

If anyone can please help us treat our little fish, it would be super and we'd appreciate it so much!

Back story: 2 days ago at the time of weekly water change, I had increased Epsom salt from 1/4 teaspoon per 28 quarts to 1 tablespoon per 28 quarts and added 1 teaspoon baking soda, which I've never done, because KH = only 3 drops only in API kit. (info found when looking up on I-net how to dose Epsom salts *facepalm*)

When we woke up & found him not only bottom sitting but also so limp yesterday morning we worried it was too much change in minerals for the lil' guy, maybe making his muscles weak (hey -- if it works on pregnant women in labor or with high blood pressure, why wouldn't it relax GF muscles too?). Immediate 50-60% water change without baking soda and without the extra Epsom salt, thought maybe a trace improvement? Another 50% water change today, no change in fish with this water change.

Today his physical exam is unchanged except no white poop at his vent today and he seems so much weaker too. He was breathing a bit rapidly this morning, now seems kinda slow. He just lies on his side on bottom of tank, will try to get away if we try to pick him up but otherwise just lying there. Won't try to eat. Seems almost too weak to move, really.

We started Baytril yesterday thinking maybe bacterial infection because of increasing lethary, thin white poop, new weakness. No specific signs of parasites but in case parasites had opened the door for bacteria, we started Prazi-pond Plus today as they say it's fairly innocuous for the fish.

Can you share any thoughts, suggestions, or encouragement please? Nothing so far seemed to help poor Kosmo and it's so tough to watch him seeming weaker and weaker. He was such a lively little Telescope when he came home with us.

Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I am sorry Kosmo is not well. A mod will be by, but 1 TB epsom is way overdosed as I understand it. I use 1/4 teasp per 10 G max when called for. Can you get him back into fresh water? (Why were you dosing epsom? What was the issue)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How long was he in the Epsom, and what the the exact dosage? Keeping a goldfish in a dose of 1/4 tsp Epsom per 10 gallons is recommended for no longer than 8 days. If used for a longer period or at a higher dose, you run the risk of anemia which is not treatable. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your replies.

I know now that was too much Epsom salts *sob* He was in the 1 tablespoon/ 7 gallons concentration overnight. Actually, although too high only about half or 3.5 gallons of that "salty" water went into his tank. That is, 1/2 Tbsp. Epsom salts went into a total of 7 gallons counting the old + new water.

We changed the water immediately, doing a perhaps 60-70% change, so he was in it about 6-7 hours; and then did another 20% change later that day (yesterday); with another 50% change today. The new water going in has had about 1/8 tsp Epsom salts per 7 gallons, what we usually use to raise the hardness of the soft tap water.

Kind of abruptly our KH went from around 8-9 drops in the API kit down to 3 drops, which I've read puts it in the range where a pH crash may not be highly likely but is not out of the question. So trying to get the KH back up.

Arrghh! It's been so tough to find an accurate, authoritative source of info. And to find two sources that say the same....*shakes head*

So now poor little Kosmo is at about 1/8 tablespoon or less Epsom salt in 7 gallons of water...if it's 3 teaspoons per tablespoon, that should be 3/8 teaspoon or a bit less Epsom salt per 7 gallons. OK we have some Primed 2-day aged water so going now to do another 60-70% water change and hopefully that will be down to less than 3/16 teaspoon Epsom salts in 7 gallons, possibly comparable to 1/4 or 4/16 teaspoons per 10 gallons.

Does anyone know of anything else, as well? Again, the household Goldfish fall prey to pet owner's ignorance...

Thank you so much for your help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't get upset, we all make mistakes and you are doing a great job! If I were you, I would get him out of Epsom and just give him fresh dechlorinated water for now. For your KH issue, have you tried Seachem Gold Buffer? I have been using it for 6+ months now and it works great. :)

I am not a mod so please wait for direct assistance from one of them before making any treatment decisions. Information here is generally very consistent and accurate, so we'll be able to give you good answers to all your questions. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello,

I'm sorry your fish is not well, and I hope that he will make a rapid recovery.

Here are some of my observations:

1. Your water is indeed very soft and low in alkalinity. So, you are right in adjusting it. I am wondering if the amount added simply was too much, and the fish just could tolerate that rapid of a change, although in general it's harder from a fish to acclimate from harder to softer water, versus going from softer to harder water.

2. I think you did the right thing in trying to get all these chemicals out.

3. 7 gallons is a bit too small, not necessarily just because of how quickly the water can accumulate toxic ammonia, but smaller volumes in general are much more susceptible to changes. If possible, could you try upping this to at least 10 gallons, and then, when you buffer the water, we will help you.

4. Since you've started Baytril, we need to finish the course. How did you administer Baytril? What dose?

Could you try to upload a video of the sick fish, if possible? Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you everyone for reading and thank you for your insight & experience.

Re tank size -- busted. This would have been little Kosmo's final week of quarantine before going into the community tank. Given his small size, chemistry in the 7-gallon Rubbermaid was a gamble that went OK until a certain human got all up in there. :^( And as is pointed out, bigger tank = smaller fluctuations *qwerty frown again*

Thanks also for the (indirect) recommendation. A new thread about water chemistry and balance in the community tank does seem in order.

50-60% water change since last post. No Epsom salts added at all / pH and temperature matched to QT.

Here are links to two 30-sec videos taken just now following water change. In the "Poorly" vid the fish moves more than he has probably all day. In the second vid recorded just after, the poor guy looks so pitiful. Maybe he tired himself out. Please accept apologies, URL's are spread out because in newness I don't yet know Forum rules about posting links.

Although the Goldfish is a newcomer with us, as you know it's amazing how much these spunky little fish come to mean to one. Thank you again for all help and input.

Edited by dnalex
fixed video links and embedding

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry Kosmo is not feeling so well. Unfortunately, given his much weakened state, there really isn't much we can do, other than just continuing to monitor the water parameters, and making sure that the water is pristine.

Hang in there. We all have fins crossed for Kosmo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Alex! Us too.

Answering earlier question: if I have this right Dr. Johnson, the FishVet (drjohnson.com), recommends 0.1 mL Baytril for a 6-inch fish, given every 2-3 days. Assuming Kosmo might be pushing 3 inches nose to tip of tail, he had 0.05 mL of Baytril by mouth yesterday and today; before next dose probably will skip a day (because FishVet recs).

These dosages are said to be for injection. Unsure how plasma levels after oral route would compare. Suggestions welcome!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ms.Jenny

Thank you for tip about Seachem Gold buffer. I'm unaware of this product and will change that right away thanks to your rec! And it seems promising; Seachem's stuff seems pretty sound all around, you know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Alex! Us too.

Answering earlier question: if I have this right Dr. Johnson, the FishVet (drjohnson.com), recommends 0.1 mL Baytril for a 6-inch fish, given every 2-3 days. Assuming Kosmo might be pushing 3 inches nose to tip of tail, he had 0.05 mL of Baytril by mouth yesterday and today; before next dose probably will skip a day (because FishVet recs).

These dosages are said to be for injection. Unsure how plasma levels after oral route would compare. Suggestions welcome!

I'm not sure what the concentration of your Baytril is, but if you have that info, we can work out the appropriate dosages. According to Edward Noga, author of Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment, the amount of Baytril in the feed is actually the same as the amount to be given orally, which is 10mg/kg of fish DAILY for 10-14 days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ms.Jenny

Thank you for tip about Seachem Gold buffer. I'm unaware of this product and will change that right away thanks to your rec! And it seems promising; Seachem's stuff seems pretty sound all around, you know?

I honestly like every Seachem product I've tried, which is quite a few. :) With Gold Buffer, start at a half dose, test your KH, and add more as needed. My water is super soft so I use almost a 2/3 dose, but I think a half is usually good. It can also raise your PH, but usually not any higher than 8.0 (I'm at 7.8).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks on the Seachem -- will do.

Another question to ask the Forum. Little Kosmo is still with us this morning altho still really weak. He's breathing and can wriggle a bit but he just gets carried by the filter's slight current, upside down or whatever.

He might have been early pineconing last night. He wasn't swollen much and another water change last night removed almost all the aquarium salt. This morning no scales-in-relief and that's a relief!

He had a zig-zaggy white poop last night but no bubbles or things that looked like eggs (a really young fish anyway).

fwiw he got another Baytril dose this AM.

He hasn't eaten since Saturday, three days ago, so the question is would you all give him a little bit of baby food pureed peas (by mouth) with a plastic-tip syringe?

Thank you again,

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi again, here's the latest

Little Kosimo is still hanging on! Now, we're taking take this as a good sign OK?

He's still very weak but moving his pecs and whatever fins are just behind the pecs (ventral?) more than yesterday. Also seems to be moving gill covers more like normal when breathing. Breathing doesn't seem excessively labored or agonal and he isn't gasping for his breath.

Getting ready to do a water change for today, I guess like the Goldfish Guru writes about daily WC's.

Hopefully hanging on means he's going to start getting better. You read that it takes three days after starting antibiotics before there is any obvious improvement

Or possibly the disease is at bay for whatever reason, but he really would need some other treatment he's not currently getting in order to recover.

He has whitish poop, I'll try to post a pic. No bubbles -- it's kinda ribbonlike, shaped like ribbon hard candy (in contour). Tapeworm? idk It just disintegrates like poop if prodded. Would a helminth just dissipate and dissolve like that? Attempted pic below.

Your comments are welcome and will be so much appreciated!

Steve

http://s848.photobucket.com/user/taz1107/media/Kosimo/Kosimolabeled6-04.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but he is in bad shape. :( You are getting great help though and I hope he shows improvement soon.

Edited by Ms.Jenny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are so right in both respects, we really appreciate the Forum and Forum members and Kosimo and the rest of us thank you for your well wishes

I believe (hope?) it's a good sign that, given his bad shape like you wrote, he's still hanging in there and doesn't seem to have gotten worse.

(Wishing) God's love to all his creatures

Regards,

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hang in there.

You can try to feed him something by syringe, by all means.

The poop is stress/internal infection type poop, and is not a helminth. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update poor little Kosmo died at about 1:00 this morning. From desperation and trying to follow Dr. Untergasser's flow charts, I added metronidazole to tank but the poor little fellow just kept getting weaker.

Thank you to the Forum for your help and support

Would it have made a difference? Who knows, but he did so well the first few weeks of QT I let myself get blasé and didn't complete courses of Minn-Fin and Prazi. If bacterial or viral it wouldn't have mattered but still... *bangs head on desk*

Thanks again everyone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm so sorry Steve. :( May little Kosmo RIP :heart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm so sorry :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm very sorry for your loss. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...