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cathys

what is this? sore?

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Hi Silke,

The calculations are nice, but flawed. Baking soda does change pH somewhat, but there is a max on how much it will change, no matter how much you add.

Likewise, because I couldn't see what was coming out of the gills, I stopped short of speculating on what it was.

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They are not flawed as when you use the link provided it will tell you the change based on what you add. The calculations are based on the actual ph, taken from the reading not based on the amount of baking soda. :) Yes the ph will stop at around 8 to 8.2, some got it up to 8.4 but surely the ph does go up with baking soda. Being without phosphates the ph is not as stable as using phosphate based buffers but the ph will go higher with that and can cause algae problems especially in planted tanks.

Regarding the gills, I wrote a question prior the explanation I saw on my fish. Wasnt a diagnose! Based on what Cathys described and from what I saw it could be very well the same thing. And it is something very strange, no one ever could answer what it is. If it is the same thing it wont be possible to take a picture of it unless professionally equiped. (Camera I mean)

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They are not flawed as when you use the link provided it will tell you the change based on what you add. The calculations are based on the actual ph, taken from the reading not based on the amount of baking soda. :) Yes the ph will stop at around 8 to 8.2, some got it up to 8.4 but surely the ph does go up with baking soda. Being without phosphates the ph is not as stable as using phosphate based buffers but the ph will go higher with that and can cause algae problems especially in planted tanks.

Cathys, let me first please apologize to you for the tangent here, but I think it's worth it to have this sort of discussion here. :)

1. Changes in pH from doing a water change:

a. you can't do averages of two solutions like that when work with pH. Remember that it's on a log scale, and a difference of 1 in pH is a ten-fold difference.

b. that simple formula doesn't take into account the kHs of the two different waters

2. Calculating kH changes, and the resultant pH:

a. The kH change is easy to measure, and that calculator is fantastic! :)

b. As you noted, it gets increasingly difficult to shift the pH as you increase the kH. After all, that's the purpose of us adding this buffer. So, while we can expect the pH to change, I hesitate to make actual predictions of what it will be, since it will depend greatly on the system we are working with.

3. Shifts in pH daily is stressful for goldfish:

a. Yes, I agree that pH crashes can be very harmful. This is especially true as it gets down below neutral, and near 9.

b. However, daily variations in pH in goldfish are NOT necessarily harmful. We have ample evidence of this in ponds, where pHs dip at night and back up again as photosynthesis takes place.

c. Noga suggests that a daily difference of 0.5 is acceptable. This is just with fish, and not with goldfish. I believe goldfish is quite a bit more tolerant of environmental changes than that.

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Have you ever tried this Alex? It is always spot on, also with everyone I advised to do so and that were a lot… putting into consideration that the common ph liquid kits are only measuring a broader range, this is all we need since as you said yourself a bit of a swing is very ok. Yes different water may act differently but this is a fantastic guide to be in a close approximate.

From my memory, and you will correct me in this, the swing in the quarantine is higher than the acceptable range and just to add the Ammonia. A ph swing will be tolerated when everything else is fine but in this case its not plus the actually issue with the lesion. I respectfully ask you Alex, when you think raising the ph like this which is clearly safer, why do you hesitate so much but add baking soda straight to the tank? This average is far more unpredictable than the calculation which always matches very well? I hope and think Cathy doesn’t mind this conversation. You know me Alex, such conversations are meant to be productive and should not understood as or turn into an opinionated issue. In this matter I was sharing experiences that worked very well. Nothing wrong to try new things to avoid further stress. To your b. You calculate both, ph and kh and then you compare the baking soda link and then ones has to decide if that is appropriate with the species. It is very well possible; especially since GF live happily in a very wide range of alkaline water. Too easy. It doesn’t matter where everything stops as long as the kh is high enough and ones have zero Ammonia... with GF at least.

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How does one get spot on answers with inaccurate tests? I'm sorry to say that with the colorimetric test the way it is, but I don't see how it's possible to really do a careful analysis. Yes, I have tested it. :)

What am I hesitating? I'm not sure what you mean.

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Spot on as best as possible which is still accurate enough to do the right thing rather than throwing in baking soda into a tank that may swing easily by1ppm all at once.

You say its a great calculation for kh. If I go by your words its also not 100% accurate as I calculate by gdh and the .numbers are not included. Does that makes it inaccurate? No as we dont have to be that accurate to get still a fantastic guide line. And this is all we need. Dataguru did a great job with that and it helped my many many times.

Hesitation to use the safer side. To me it is... does it make sense in English... it is hairsplitting.

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What I am trying to say is that one doesn't need to rely on such a calculator, because it simply is unnecessary. If you to my response to you at the very beginning, I already said that while I don't think that the calculations are quite that accurate, it is a good approximation, EXCEPT for the bit about the incremental increase in the pH, as calculated. I didn't discourage using it, but I'll say it again, I simply think it's not necessary. Sometimes we dwell too much on the trees, and forget about the forest.

The general concept that I was trying to push forward are simply this:

Goldfish have a pretty good tolerance for some amount of pH changes. So, I'd rather not fixate on nailing my pH to a certain number. Rather, I would just prefer to know that it's the right range, with the appropriate amount of buffering and hardness.

As someone who loves math, I don't have a problem with calculations and tables, etc. :)

I hope that makes sense. In any case, I think for the purposes of this thread, we need to back off, because I prefer for these lengthy (and interesting) discussions to stand in their own threads. :)

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Agreed!

Don’t think I use that calculation all the time. I only used that in the beginning to figure out certain things and then tested for confirmation.

In such situations like this one here it is a great help to figure out how much Ammonia, Nitrate etc. will be reduced after a wc, (unless ones does a 50% wc of course lol) also when Ammonia is present in tap or when ones need to bring up the kh more etc. Once done, its sorted as long as the change water hits the appropriate kh to keep it up in the tank.

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Yes, but when once has 8ppm ammonia in the tap, bringing the kH up isn't going to be helpful.

Actually, for me the cut off is really 1ppm ammonia in tap, which I think the biological filter and the fish can readily adapt to. Anything above that, and you should really consider some sort of removal system.

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Absolutely but I never recommended that anyway. Such high Ammonia in tap is a serious issue. I think there are more issues with that water than Ammonia only why I think RO or spring water is needed not only because of Ammonia. Taps can be extremely high in organics, mine is more during winter. If Cathy is not using test strips and her kh out of tap is really at 7 there is something going on with that water. Anyway, my very first post agreed with your last post. I couldnt find if Cathy receives city water or well water. I am sure, if its city water she should complain, ring the supplier and get it all tested professionally for free. They have to. If its received as drinking water its way above the limit and cant be safe at all. Things to ask are, what they use to raise ph, if the water gets filtered or only treated. If treated only it will be very high in organics.

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Absolutely but I never recommended that anyway. Such high Ammonia in tap is a serious issue. I think there are more issues with that water than Ammonia only why I think RO or spring water is needed not only because of Ammonia. Taps can be extremely high in organics, mine is more during winter. If Cathy is not using test strips and her kh out of tap is really at 7 there is something going on with that water. Anyway, my very first post agreed with your last post. I couldnt find if Cathy receives city water or well water. I am sure, if its city water she should complain, ring the supplier and get it all tested professionally for free. They have to. If its received as drinking water its way above the limit and cant be safe at all. Things to ask are, what they use to raise ph, if the water gets filtered or only treated. If treated only it will be very high in organics.

Thank you for the kind input. For things like this, I prefer to leave discussions of long term solutions at the end, not when I am trying to keep up with the immediate problems.

Yes, I do think that if the ammonia in the water is that high, something needs to be done about it. The key thing now is to make sure that the fish is healing fine, and that is to place him/her in a safe environment one way or another. :)

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You are very welcome! :) The long term solution is also a short term issue as without getting the fish out of ammonia right now, healing is compromised. But of course you know that, nothing new. Still nothing left for the end.

I am out here, just wanted to help and my advise was good. Up to the reader I guess.

Edited by Silke

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just got on to ask a question about prazi and saw the debate. will read tonight. have to get to work shortly. i'm going to be starting a new situation with my main tank as I believe I have argulus but without microscope not able to diagnose. I've been doing the 7 day rounds with prazi and salt. if argulus was actually attached would it have come off by now? i'm wondering if the prazi is outdated. it's been open for over a year. I have two fish in the 75 gal I've been treating. the oranda had one round brownish spot but was showing a few more spots where ...not sure what they were but now the one spot is open and bleeding but not bad. still swimming about and eating. I also fed the metro meds for two weeks. I ran out of the prazi and i'm due to treat with prazi again on Friday. Not sure I can get another bottle by Friday. Main reason for this post is to ask about shelf life of opened prazipro ? I'll start a new thread on that tank. I'm really exhausted and thinking of getting rid of the goldies as I don't seem to be able to help them. i'd rather they go to someone with more experience and better water ! Later after retirement and moving to a better water supply starting up again.

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aaww hun, i know how discouraging this hobby can be.. a few times, i faced losing all my stock and that was frightening as well as exhausting :( i understand exactly how you feel.

i don't know for the shelf life of prazipro once opened as i have only been using the product a very short time myself, however, i do notice an expiry date on the bottom of my bottle stamped in black, does yours have one? i am thinking as it is not a product that requires to be in the fridge and that if you've kept it away from heat and direct sunlight, that it will be good til the expiry and perhaps longer. but, we will wait the opinions of more members who do know more about this product and can advise you.

i am sorry you're having a difficult time with your goldies, and yes, when something is wrong, because of all the attention required it is nothing but exhausting mentally and physically. you have been doing such a wonderful job, very dedicated and an absolute star with your efforts. they haven't gone unnoticed hun :hug i have been checking your thread every few days :heart

i don't want you to worry for debates here, you have clear instruction on your treatment plan and that's what you need to stay focused on :)

i will be waiting to see a new 911 on the fish with the oranda with the bleeding wound and what we can do to stop that bleeding.

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Argulus is not affected by Prazi, or by salt, unfortunately. They are parasitic crustaceans, and when treatment is deemed warranted, you have to use a chitin inhibitor to block growth. I tend not to use them, because they come with a host of possible side effects and because I have not found it to be necessary in most cases.

Let's have a discussion when you are back.

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You are very welcome! :) The long term solution is also a short term issue as without getting the fish out of ammonia right now, healing is compromised. But of course you know that, nothing new. Still nothing left for the end.

I am out here, just wanted to help and my advise was good. Up to the reader I guess.

thanks for all your input. as soon as I get time i'll review everything.

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Argulus is not affected by Prazi, or by salt, unfortunately. They are parasitic crustaceans, and when treatment is deemed warranted, you have to use a chitin inhibitor to block growth. I tend not to use them, because they come with a host of possible side effects and because I have not found it to be necessary in most cases.

Let's have a discussion when you are back.

just making a quick check. got to do water changes on tanks now. i'm just keeping bobbie's qt without salt. for now though stupidly put the biowheels back in yesterday and they have been floating in the main tank since I qtd her. I realized my mistake and took out but ....duh now I've exposed her to whatever's in the main tank. should I start up the salt again? or wait for now. I stopped the salt and just doing daily water changes. Not sure i'll get to read over all the posts tonight but i'll see what time it is when I get done with the water changes I've aged the water for the qt change for 24 hours. temp and ph match. ammonia at .25 on both qt and aged water. : ( I suppose it wouldn't be a good idea to add more amquel plus to the aged water ? if you even call 24 hours aged.

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Absolutely but I never recommended that anyway. Such high Ammonia in tap is a serious issue. I think there are more issues with that water than Ammonia only why I think RO or spring water is needed not only because of Ammonia. Taps can be extremely high in organics, mine is more during winter. If Cathy is not using test strips and her kh out of tap is really at 7 there is something going on with that water. Anyway, my very first post agreed with your last post. I couldnt find if Cathy receives city water or well water. I am sure, if its city water she should complain, ring the supplier and get it all tested professionally for free. They have to. If its received as drinking water its way above the limit and cant be safe at all. Things to ask are, what they use to raise ph, if the water gets filtered or only treated. If treated only it will be very high in organics.

I just wanted to specify the ppm at 8 I only tested last fall and hope it doesn't go there again. it was at a 1ppm for 3 months or more just last week it went to 2ppm. tonight I tested and it's still at 2ppm. test kit is api drops with expiration date in 2017. it's city water (new water plant a couple years ago). they get their water from a lake but I'm afraid farmers fields drain into it. there's a big issue. I'm afraid with all the water changes and other things I've got going on I may not get all the readings you want until the weekend. now I really do need to get to the water changes ? and yes I need to figure out something permanent with the water issue. I'm thinking about contacting the EPA on the water issue.

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Yes, you should most definitely contact the EPA, or some sort of regulatory agency. Just make sure to remember to tell them that when you test for ammonia, it's total ammonia. This is important, because their test is for "ammonia nitrogen," or the concentration of nitrogen coming exclusively from ammonia. This number therefore is slightly lower than total ammonia, since the ammonia molecule is composed of one nitrogen and 3 hydrogen molecules. 8ppm ammonia by your test will be equivalent to 6.5ppm ammonia nitrogen.

I think for now, let's not add more salt, since clean water itself is enough. I'd like to keep pH at neutral to slightly basic at all times (7-8.4), and add Prime daily if needed, to make sure that the ammonia present is detoxified. :)

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So, I just did some digging around on the EPA website. Their advisory for ammonia upper limit is a whopping 30ppm. So, the 8ppm unfortunately is well within acceptable standards for them. :no:

http://water.epa.gov...dwstandards.cfm

well...no help there

ps like your new pic : )

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Thank you lol

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Just an update on Bobbie. Her sore seems somewhat better though there seem to be additional questionable areas. I found several greenish circular spots on side of qt container. I wiped off with papertowel when I did the water change. They looked suspect. Were transparent with circles inside. Eggs ? I still never diagnosed or had diagnosis of argulus. I've started treating water with Melafix by Mars. Contains extract of tea tree. The product is to help with healing of wounds. Active ingredient 1.0% melaleuca. Thinking of treating for argulus after the melafix? I have some tetra parasite guard though it doesn't list argulus. Box says external parasites including flukes, anchor worm and ich.

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That sounds suspiciously like fish lice :yikes

If that is the case, you will need to treat the QT, AND the main tank.

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will this stuff work or should I get something else?

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