Help, I'm killing my fish

[jenzaar 11,605]

Test Results for the Following:
• * Ammonia Level (tank): 1ppm
  
• * Nitrite Level (tank) 0
  
• * Nitrate level (Tank) 0
  
• * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.5, 0, 0
  
• 
  Other Required Info:
• * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API 5-in-1 strips, and API drops for NH3 and NH4
  
• * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 filters, 55 and 45 gal hangy ones (sorry, I'm too scattered to remember!)
  
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Aqueon water conditioner
  
• * Water temperature? room temp, no heater
  
• * How often do you change the water and how much? Weekly, 20%
  

• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today
  
• * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55gal, four weeks
  
• * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 fancy goldfish, 3-4" from nose to tail
  
• * What do you feed your fish and how often? once or twice daily, a small amount
  
• * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  
• * Any medications added to the tank?
  
• * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) high ammonia, see below for awful behavioral changes
  
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? bubbles all over body? gills seem to be poking out, red streaks on one due to ammonia
  
• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? One is at bottom, the other floating listlessly
  
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. One week of Amquel, more info below
  

New member at the forum, though I have been looking through in recent weeks. *shamefully waves hello*

What a wreck this has been... hard to start from the beginning.

Long story short, we added in our two fat fancies about three weeks ago, thinking that our tank had cycled enough for them (had been running about two weeks with dirty filters). WRONG! Been dealing with ammonia from the start. Did a week with Amquel (figured it was better to neutralize the ammonia bond rather than throw out what little beneficial bacteria were in there), then mostly-daily water changes with little or no improvement with the ammonia.

This morning I made a horrible, horrible decision in doing an extreme water change. Many things I have read said to do that, and since it was the one thing I hadn't tried.... well now, after a 30-gallon change, my fish are shocked, stressed, listless and probably a day away from dead. I ran to my fish store for help, and was told NOT to have done that water change, and to throw in a bottle of bacteria and to let it ride.

My oranda has been at the bottom of the tank, and now the ryukin is floating at the top, bubbles galore, unable to swim.

I know they've got their fins in their graves.... but what can I at least try to do? I can't believe I did this to them.

[ahardeay 826]

Can you please test your tap levels? Did you add dechlorinater like prime? A mod should help soon.

[jenzaar 11,605]

Apologies... wrote this while trying to entertain my daughter. Adding them now!

[jenzaar 11,605]

Guess I don't know how to edit post....

Tap levels are same as tank: 6.5pH, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, GH 0 and KH 0

[Tiffany_King 21]

Hi! Is your tank reading 1ppm for ammonia after the water change or before? If your were only doing weekly water changes of 20% when your tank was cycling I believe your ammonia got very high. Daily water changes would have been much better. It's possible adding so much clean water after the ammonia was soo high shocked them. This happened to one of my fish and I couldn't save him I wish you luck! Hopefully someone experienced might have advice.

[Orandatchi 210]

Can we see pictures of what's happening to the fish?

[jenzaar 11,605]

Hi! Is your tank reading 1ppm for ammonia after the water change or before? If your were only doing weekly water changes of 20% when your tank was cycling I believe your ammonia got very high. Daily water changes would have been much better. It's possible adding so much clean water after the ammonia was soo high shocked them. This happened to one of my fish and I couldn't save him I wish you luck! Hopefully someone experienced might have advice.

I never got to weekly water changes after adding them -- the ammonia spikes happened the day after we added the fish. Weekly, 20% changes are what I usually do; I've been doing daily changes on and off since we've had the fish. I should have clarified.

The reading was 1ppm before I changed the water. We left for about an hour and then I checked again; ammonia was again at 1ppm.

Thanks so much for your input. I don't know how I've killed a goldfish in six hours but I've done it. The ryukin, Scooter, is gone. Hopefully Cleo will pull through, she's a beautiful red and black oranda with the sweetest personality.

[dnalex 13,633]

Hello. I'm sorry your fish are having issues. We will do our best to be helpful!

I have a few general comments:

1. Running your tank with dirty filters for two weeks won't cycle your tank. The biofilter needs food, and if you run the tank for two weeks without an ammonia source, then if anything, the beneficial bacteria will die out, or decrease greatly in numbers.

2. Doing big water changes are absolutely fine, provided that you make sure of two things: 1) pH is the same or close enough, and 2) temps of new and old water are the same. Both of these are crucial. We know that your pH appears to be the same. Did you match temps when you do the WCs?

3. Amquel should be used as your permanent conditioner whether you have ammonia/nitrites or not. This product is superior the Aqueon one that you are now using.

4. With the ammonia still at 1ppm in the tank, you will need to do more WCs until it gets down to zero. Please refer to point number 2 for more info. Once you get the ammonia to zero, I can offer you more suggestions on how to cycle with fish.

5. Please provide pictures or videos if you can. Thanks.

• * Ammonia Level (tank): 1ppm
  
• * Nitrite Level (tank) 0
  
• * Nitrate level (Tank) 0
  
• * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.5, 0, 0
  

As I said up above, the ammonia at 1ppm is a problem, and needs to be brought down to zero ASAP.

A pH of 6.5 is not ideal. Compounding that to the zeros for gH and kH, and there will be huge problems. I actually don't believe that your gH and kH are zero. This needs to be measured again, or you need to contact your water utility, or go to their online water quality report to get what they think the number should be.

[ahardeay 826]

Can you test your tap ammonia level too?

[jenzaar 11,605]

Hello. I'm sorry your fish are having issues. We will do our best to be helpful!

I have a few general comments:

1. Running your tank with dirty filters for two weeks won't cycle your tank. The biofilter needs food, and if you run the tank for two weeks without an ammonia source, then if anything, the beneficial bacteria will die out, or decrease greatly in numbers.

2. Doing big water changes are absolutely fine, provided that you make sure of two things: 1) pH is the same or close enough, and 2) temps of new and old water are the same. Both of these are crucial. We know that your pH appears to be the same. Did you match temps when you do the WCs?

3. Amquel should be used as your permanent conditioner whether you have ammonia/nitrites or not. This product is superior the Aqueon one that you are now using.

4. With the ammonia still at 1ppm in the tank, you will need to do more WCs until it gets down to zero. Please refer to point number 2 for more info. Once you get the ammonia to zero, I can offer you more suggestions on how to cycle with fish.

5. Please provide pictures or videos if you can. Thanks.

• * Ammonia Level (tank): 1ppm
  
• * Nitrite Level (tank) 0
  
• * Nitrate level (Tank) 0
  
• * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.5, 0, 0
  

As I said up above, the ammonia at 1ppm is a problem, and needs to be brought down to zero ASAP.

A pH of 6.5 is not ideal. Compounding that to the zeros for gH and kH, and there will be huge problems. I actually don't believe that your gH and kH are zero. This needs to be measured again, or you need to contact your water utility, or go to their online water quality report to get what they think the number should be.

1. Don't know where I got the idea that that was possible-- been running tanks for about six years and it's possible I thought that due to some dumb luck. Since this problem has started I've begun to understand a bit more about the cycling process.

2. I made sure that the water I added was the same temperature

3. I was not aware you could use Amquel as a water conditioner. I was under the impression that while it neutralizes the ammonia bond, it does not remove it. Just makes it non-toxic. I wanted to get rid of it all?

I will check the GH and KH levels again. I probably read it wrong but I'll try to measure between the colors on the strip more accurately, as well as checking the ammonia in our tap water

I don't have ny pics due to my husband banning me from the house to stop freaking out (didn't really work), which is also the reason these answers are probably not the best I could provide. Thanks so much for your help! I'll get bac with any more info I can get.

[fantailfan1 26,742]

That is correct. Amquel does not remove ammonia, it converts it to a non toxic form. However, it's ability to convert ammonia to its non-toxic form is not limitless and that is what good ole fashioned water changes are for.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your cycling. That is what brings many many people here. Hang in there.

[jenzaar 11,605]

Thanks.

It's sad that with fish you learn mostly from experience, and gain your experience through loss. Thought I was past most of that, apparently not!

I'll put in a proper newbie meet-and-greet soon

[jenzaar 11,605]

For those who asked...

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=7e83ce2add&view=att&th=13d2e028092cb650&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1428450501334138880-1&safe=1&zw

Here's Cleo, resting at the bottom. She (I use that term loosely but I do believe Cleo is a girl) does move a bit here and there but settles back down after a round. I can't bring myself to rouse her up for the sake of a video, so this will have to suffice. Sorry that it's sideways.... and if it doesn't work :/

I'll post the pretty happy healthy pictures in a separate post.

Edited March 3, 2013 by jenzaar

[dnalex 13,633]

I think the picture will only show up if you upload to a host site like Photobucket or Flickr.

I am going to have you do a very very gentle salt dip for Cleo as we begin to sort things out. Will you get some canning & pickling salt (or any salt without additives), and we give get started. Also, feel her belly for me. Is it soft, hard, etc?

Thanks.

[jenzaar 11,605]

I have kosher salt? If I need something else I will pick it up in the morning.

I just felt her belly. I don't think it really felt soft or hard. I wouldn't know how to describe it, a little firm but it didn't feel squishy or anything. Vague, I know, but hopefully that means something to you!

[dnalex 13,633]

I actually do know what you mean lol.

Here is the protocol

SALT DIP

1. dissolve 30 teaspoons salt/gallon of water (10 grams/Liter, or 38 g/gallon). This concentration is 1%. Let it match the temp/pH of the tank, and make sure to add de-chlorinator. You can also use tank water, but because you are adding a lot of salt per gallon, you will need to heat up the water. Hence, it's crucial that you cool it back down.

2. prepare a holding tank. This is a tank that is pH/temp matched with the main tank, and has been de-chlorinated. This can be a 5 gallon tub, with bubblestone, or something bigger.

3. make sure you have some sort of timer

4. gently lift the fish out of the tank, and place into temp/pH matched salt solution.

5. start timer.

6. if the fish stays continues to stay upright, or tilts over but can get back up, keep him/her in the salt solution for exactly 5 minutes.

7. remove fish from the salt, and place in holding tank. The reason why we do this is to: 1) give the fish a place to recover by him/herself, and 2)to let the fish purge out ammonia/wastes in a place that is not the main tank.

8. if the fish starts to lose balance and cannot get back before the minutes, remove him/her and place in holding tank, as described in #6.

9. after 1-2 hours, the fish can be moved back to the main tank. He/She might still be disoriented, but should be fine.

[jenzaar 11,605]

Had a feeling you might know haha. She is up and about this morning! Thank goodness!

Should I still do it? and is Kosher salt okay for this?

I have an empty ten gallon tank that I can hold her in, and a large bowl for the salt dip?

[Orandatchi 210]

Morton's Canning and Pickling Salt is a great idea to use for salt dips, plus it's cheap

[GoldenSpoiledRotten 6,786]

As long as the only ingredient is 'salt' you should be fine. The salt should have no anti-caking agents in it at all.

[Orandatchi 210]

Here's a good video by Sakura here on Koko's on how to do a Salt Dip.

[jenzaar 11,605]

I am really hesitant to do this, not because I think it will cause any real harm but I already shocked one fish to death yesterday. What if it happens again?? Hubby says she's alive, she's moving, don't break what's not broken etc.

(love this video, thankyou so much for posting!! super helpful)

[jenzaar 11,605]

And is there anything I should do to my tank before she goes back into it? Afraid that will cause some stress to her also.

(kosher salt has no additives, no caking stuff, no iodine. looks the the only difference between the two is that it's more coarse, so I'm going to use that if I do suck it up and try the salt dip)

little strung out over here if you couldn't tell

[gran'sgoldies1 235]

Salt dips for the first time are scary but the results from them are often amazing. You're in good hands with Alex guiding you!

[jenzaar 11,605]

Thankyou. Still on the fence, I think I'm more scared about what happens when I put her back in the tank (there's still ammonia in there) than what happens in the salt dip.

[fantailfan1 26,742]

How much ammonia is still in the tank? Have you tested your tap water for ammonia? (Sorry I looked but didn't see if you had posted this . . )

If your tap ammonia is 0 or close to it, a large water change is all it would take to get the ammonia down. Please don't hesitate to do large water changes. Your tap and tank pH are essentially the same so it should not create any problems. Just match the temp.