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Is this Ich or something else?


spillie

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Hi guys, I have three fish in QT no, a small tele and 2 itty bitty (3/4") baby chus. They were fine the forst two weeks and suddenly one of the baby chus and the tele were covered in what looked like grains of salt. (The other chu shows no signs at all) Ich is endemic here in Korea, I seem to get a fresh case with all of the tropicals I get here, so accordingly raised the heat to 80 and salted to .3% 5 days ago. However, unlike other cases I have had, the spots are not falling off, but rather getting BIGGER and unevenly shaped. So I am wonder if this is ich at all or somethig else? And if I should be treating differently?


    est Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level (tank): 0
  • * Nitrite Level (tank) .5 (yikes)
  • * Nitrate level (Tank) 60 (yikes)
  • * Ammonia Level (Tap):
  • * Nitrite Level (Tap)
  • * Nitrate level (Tap)
  • * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.6
  • * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? api drop
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? cycled large sponge filter the only extra I have...(I cannot buy one here as my place is on US current-need to order from US)
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime
  • * Water temperature? 80
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? Was doing 50 % every other day, clearly not enough. was testing fine the first week or so on this regime, then I stopped testing (bad)

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Just now I changed 60% after seeing readings, before that, 2 days ago
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10 G QT
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2" tele and two tiny 3/4" ranchus
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? variety of dried and gel foods, 2x daily
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? all new, QT tank, running almost 3 weeks now
  • * Any medications added to the tank? no
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.)
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? garins of salyt getting bigger and blotchier
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? behavior largely the same, chus active, everyone eating, but heavily infested tele bottom sitting and gasping.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Treated with salt and prazi week one, then treated with Jungel parasite clear for 5 days as I understand many fish here has internal worms, then a few days later, this appeared

  • * You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp178/Spillie/IMG_4955_zpsee4c7a2d.jpg

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp178/Spillie/IMG_4953_zps778899c0.jpg

Poor thing, really it's awful. Please let me know if I should treat differently.

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I just got into work so cannot test now, but typically my tap is ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrates 20-40, ph 7.4.

I am surprised I am showing nitrates as this filter was fully cycled and wonder if the parasite clear or salt threw it off. It was doing fine despite its limted capacity the first part of this QT.

BTW I had an ich outbreak in a second QT with tropicals about the same time this showed up, so assumed I transferred it over inadvertently from one or the other, but in the tropicals' case (treated with Kordon Rid Ich), it did not develop like this. Just a few grains of salt and they are completly gone by now (still treating, however). I had another ich case a few months ago and that also was standard grains of salt. Lots of them, but not looking like this is. Thus, am really wondering if this is something different.

Have to sign off now, but will check back in this evening. Thanks for any help/thoughts on this.

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Some strains of Ich and other parasites are resistant to salt at 0.3%. If the goldfish are from the same source as the tropicals in Quarantine, it could be the same disease. And, if the Rid Ich worked for the tropicals, it may also work for the goldfish. However, I would not combine the salt and the Rid Ich.

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Thanks, Chelsea. I see the pics now. :o

Spillie, it does look like a really really bad case of ich to me. I hope you are still using the salt. I may even consider going up to 0.4-0.5%, ASAP.

Some strains of Ich and other parasites are resistant to salt at 0.3%. If the goldfish are from the same source as the tropicals in Quarantine, it could be the same disease. And, if the Rid Ich worked for the tropicals, it may also work for the goldfish. However, I would not combine the salt and the Rid Ich.

While it's true that I've seen this talked about a lot, I have never experienced it, and it hasn't really happened that often on this forum either. I think that sometimes people get freaked out when things get worse and call it salt-resistant ich, when in fact remember that because of the life cycle of the parasite, it will get worse before it actually gets better.

In addition, Rid Ich contains formalin, which can also kill Flukes if they are present.

I really really don't like using any product that contains formalin, unless it's warranted. Not only is it damaging to gills, it's also coupled with malachite green most times, and that compound is a potential carcinogen and a terrible stain. Lastly, I don't like using it, because most times, it kills the cycle, making things even worse. :(

Edited by dnalex
fixed a sentence that did not make sense
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Alex would a dip be beneficial?

LOL. You must have been reading my mind. I need to see what spillie says about their state of health (besides the ich) before making that suggestion. It could help, but it could be too much for them to handle.

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Would a salt dip knock it off of the poor tele? I am not sure how strong she is. She still eats eagerly, but otherwise is bottom sitting and "panting" (rapidly opening and closing her mouth,though not opening her mouth wide while she is doing this). She is not bery active in general, having something a bit wrong with her tail, so I think swimming takes effort, but now is still except when eating. The bitty chus seem quite fine and are swimming all over-one of them has this, too, but not as heavily. I am bit recluctant to do a full salt dip on the tele, I think it might be to much (though if it is the only hope she has, I'll do it). Can I do a half strength one or something like that, or is that pointless. Raisng the salt in there to .4% after another water change in a minute.

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Let's not do a salt dip. I just have this feeling their gills are in really bad shape right now, and I don't think they can deal with a dip.

The next two days should be very telling, as the one week mark is up. You should get a reduction by the then.

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Thank you Alex and everyone who is helping. :heart I've done another 50% water change and salt is now at .4%

(On another note, Alex, do you never sleep? It must be the wee morning hours where you are!)

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Thank you Alex and everyone who is helping. :heart I've done another 50% water change and salt is now at .4%

(On another note, Alex, do you never sleep? It must be the wee morning hours where you are!)

Robots don't need to sleep. :teehee

I hope your fish feels better very soon. :heart

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Thanks! We'll see how she is tomorrow. I wish these things would fall off her already--not sure how much longer she can handle this degree of infestation. She's a really nice little fish and I feel sorry that she is going through this. I only became aware of the ich when it was already bad--my QT has no light on top and in the somewhat dim light in my kitchen I just did not notice. I am going to get a light for the QT tank for next time.

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Alex was right about the one week mark--today, the spots are off the bitty chu and, while the Tele is still covered, she is less covered than yesterday. They are in .4% salt. Thank goodness I ordered three boxes of Morton's Pickling Salt a few months ago--I have gone through more here in Korea with these endless ich cases than I ever did in the US!

Some reflections:

1) Regarding QT, in the three separate ich outbreaks I have had with new fish in the last few months, in every case all showed no signs at the end of 2 weeks of QT; it was just after the 2 week mark (like, day 15-16) that ich appeared. Temp in the 2 tropical tanks was 77 degrees. So, I do not think that the "two week minimum" QT is a good guideline anymore--from now on, it is a minimum of three for me.

2) I did not have an ich outbreak with my initial group of goldies. There is a good reason to salt to .3% for goldies during the entire QT period. Too bad many tropicals cannot take salt.

3) Yes, you can transfer ich though a shared siphon, net, etc. That is what I think happened here. I started out with one siphon per QT tank, and one failed, so I began sharing. At the same time, I had stopped salting the goldies. BAM! I ended up with ich in both the tropical QT and the goldie QT.

4) Heat alone can work for tropicals, provided you have high enough temp (and the type of fish you have can handle it). When I had the first ich outbreak a few months ago, I had Blue Balloon Rams that had been with everyone else that got ich, but was concerned about salt or Rid Ich as they are sensitive to both. So, they went into a QT where I kept the heat at 85-86 for 3 weeks and they never developed ich. (Other fish in that group were treated separately with Rid Ich, which also worked.)

Note that I would not use heat higher than 80 for goldies--and keeping them as high as 80 should only be a short term thing.

I wish I had tried heat alone with the glass catfish; Rid Ich caused them to lose their fins/barbels and most of them have died--they were perfectly fine the first 2 weeks in QT until I started the Rid Ich. They made it through the first 4 or 5 days of treatment and then started to die... I am now switching to heat alone for the 3 survivors.

5) From now on, all QTs will have a light. I missed the early signs of this as the QT tanks had no light and were in a rather dim part of my rather dim kitchen. Good for fish stress. Not good for seeing problems! And, I became less diligent about peering closely at the fish after about 10 days in QT as all seemed perfectly fine--whereas before that (due to the previous ich outbreak), I had been actively looking for ich or other signs of problems.

....which leads me to 6) Complacency is not your friend. I got complacent as all looked fine...

Edited by spillie
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Alex was right about the one week mark--today, the spots are off the bitty chu and, while the Tele is still covered, she is less covered than yesterday. They are in .4% salt. Thank goodness I ordered three boxes of Morton's Pickling Salt a few months ago--I have gone through more here in Korea with these endless ich cases than I ever did in the US!

Woot! I'm so glad there are improvements, and I am also happy to hear that the ich doesn't appear to be salt resistant after all. As I said before, I think a lot of people panic and think that salt isn't doing anything, when they just need to give it a bit more time. It's really nerve wracking, since you feel like your fish is going to die, because you aren't doing enough, but that is just the way it is with the life cycle of the parasite. Adding stronger meds will still have the same results.

Sometimes people also say that salt doesn't work while the other meds do. This is often because they will have tried salt for the first few days (less than week), freak out, and add things like Quick Cure. So when the see the ich coming down after a week, they attribute all of that to the Quick Cure, when it actually had been the work of salt as well. :)

In any case, I am just very happy with the update! :)

Some reflections:

1) Regarding QT, in the three separate ich outbreaks I have had with new fish in the last few months, in every case all showed no signs at the end of 2 weeks of QT; it was just after the 2 week mark (like, day 15-16) that ich appeared. Temp in the 2 tropical tanks was 77 degrees. So, I do not think that the "two week minimum" QT is a good guideline anymore--from now on, it is a minimum of three for me.

We actually never recommend 2 weeks minimum, and have always harped on 4 weeks minimum, and 6 if you want to be careful. Moreover, the way I do QT, the fish are immediately in 0.3% salt and double Prazi for the first two weeks, and then to lesser salt and single dose Prazi for at least the next two. This way, ich and other parasites never have the chance to even get a foothold.

It also really emphasizes the need to start salt right away, if you are going to do it. The fish may be stressed, but salt will only help and doesn't make things worse. Not adding salt right away means that during that time, parasites have a chance to act, without the aid of a simple help.

3) Yes, you can transfer ich though a shared siphon, net, etc. That is what I think happened here. I started out with one siphon per QT tank, and one failed, so I began sharing. At the same time, I had stopped salting the goldies. BAM! I ended up with ich in both the tropical QT and the goldie QT.

I agree. That's why I have a set of siphon and other tools dedicated to QT, and this gets thoroughly disinfected after the QT is over.

4) Heat alone can work for tropicals, provided you have high enough temp (and the type of fish you have can handle it). When I had the first ich outbreak a few months ago, I had Blue Balloon Rams that had been with everyone else that got ich, but was concerned about salt or Rid Ich as they are sensitive to both. So, they went into a QT where I kept the heat at 85-86 for 3 weeks and they never developed ich. (Other fish in that group were treated separately with Rid Ich, which also worked.)

Note that I would not use heat higher than 80 for goldies--and keeping them as high as 80 should only be a short term thing.

I wish I had tried heat alone with the glass catfish; Rid Ich caused them to lose their fins/barbels and most of them have died--they were perfectly fine the first 2 weeks in QT until I started the Rid Ich. They made it through the first 4 or 5 days of treatment and then started to die... I am now switching to heat alone for the 3 survivors.

Heat alone can work with ich, too, for goldfish. It's very well established that temps greater than 86 can kill ich, and so if you really want you can do it. 86 is not an intolerable temp for goldfish, as long as you make sure the tank is well-oxygenated. For my part, I just feel better to just drive the process faster with higher temp (78-80), and then use salt. :)

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OK, almost all of it is off her, looks like just a few spots remaining. Problem now is that she is beginning to get blood streaks in her fins. She was active this AM, but now hanging at the top. I am not surprised that she is having problems, given the degree of infestation I took the salt back down to a bit over .3% when I did a 60% water change today.

What should I do for this new problem?--I have Furan 2, Triple Sulpha, Kanamycin, MMs, MG, maracyn, maracyn plus if any of those are called for..

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