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SumoKoi

GOLDFISH OVERDOSE! Overstock-King!

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Ok so I went a little nuts! Before anyone mentions overstocking let me inform you that many of these will be going into ponds. I have about 750g of pond systems for this year's growing season. I REPEAT, THEY WILL BE GOING INTO OUTDOOR PONDS!!! :) Many of the local fish stores in southern California got in shipments of goldfish this past week (just landed from overseas) and I became obsessed w/ collecting and cherry picking a selection of goldfish to learn from. Each has a different trait that I wanted to observe over time. As a side note, buying too many fish may not be good for the individual enthusiast but it is a good catalyst for the fish industry, hobbyists as a group and the economy as a whole. ;) But let's not get into that.

Anyway, over the past weeks quarantine, I can see a couple that need to be culled for swim bladder disease and my favorite shubunkin is clinging on to life while the tank was salted for ick. It looks like the fish swallowed a piece of salt rock, got bloated and was losing balance when I found it posted near the sump overflow. I decided to put it out in the pond early in an effort to dilute the salt. So far it is still breathing but it is hard to say whether it will make it or not.

My quarantine process consists of salting the tank gradually over the course of a few days; 0.12%, 0.3%-0.4% (for koi I go to 0.5%). I also increase the temperature to expedite bowel movements from their previous living conditions and to make sure all are eating. Once everyone is eating and fish waste appears normal, I turn off the heater and let the tank cool naturally to ambient temps 65-70f. Having the bulk of my fish keeping experience in tropical fish, I'm just noticing that swim bladder disease (predominantly in fancy goldfish) can be manipulated w/ the fluctuations in temperatures. For instance..some lfs kept their tanks @ 75-78f where the fish will swim fine but if the water gets cooler, the swim bladder disorder becomes more prevalent. Two of my fish (black oranda & calico fantail) swam fine at the fish store and during the first phase of quarantine, but found themselves trying to maintain balance during the second phase when my tanks cooled to 65-68f.

Here is the stock list of fish you'll see in the video.

5 Red Cap Orandas

1 Black Cap Oranda

1 Chocolate Oranda

1 White Oranda

3 Red & White Telescopes

2 Calico Telescopes/Dragon Eyes

1 Orange & White Telescope

1 Orange & Black Telescope

4 Pearlscales

1 Crown Pearlscale

4 Red & White Ryukins

3 Calico Fantails

2 Orange & White Ranchus

3 Shubunkin

4 Koi

And here's a video of what 33 mixed fancy goldfish and 4 baby koi look like swimming in a 135g tank:

Edited by SumoKoi

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they look lovely.. and i just subscribed to your youtube channel as i would like to see more of your discus too :)

i am sure you are staying ontop of your water changes, i would be aiming for 3 x 70% wc's per week at this rate and feeding every other day. they release too many toxins and problems will begin to show if a super routine is not maintained.

good luck.

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My apologies for saying this, but unless you are doing daily water changes (and even then), I do not know how many will make it to go the pond.

I know you already know, but that is just too many fish in that size tank, even as QT. We are an educational site after all, and it would be remiss of me not to point this out. :(

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Very nice!

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WOW that is a lot of fish. lol

Good luck

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It looks stunning, and it's great to see most of them will be going into a pond, but the 750g pond system will not be enough, as koi need 300 gallons EACH at a minimum size of 1.000 for even just one fish.

You have four, so alone your koi will need 1.200 gallons of pond to themselves. :(

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congratulations and welcome to the world of goldfish. which is much more interesting and exciting than the old discus.

Nice looking fish.

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It looks stunning, and it's great to see most of them will be going into a pond, but the 750g pond system will not be enough, as koi need 300 gallons EACH at a minimum size of 1.000 for even just one fish.

You have four, so alone your koi will need 1.200 gallons of pond to themselves. :(

:yikes I jumped when I saw that post. Koi are beautiful and all, but that's the reason why I don't want koi. ._.

Edited by Orandatchi♥

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It looks stunning, and it's great to see most of them will be going into a pond, but the 750g pond system will not be enough, as koi need 300 gallons EACH at a minimum size of 1.000 for even just one fish.

You have four, so alone your koi will need 1.200 gallons of pond to themselves. :(

:yikes I jumped when I saw that post. Koi are beautiful and all, but that's the reason why I don't want koi. ._.

Well you have to consider the size of these guys. The average koi grows to be about 30". Even if it is a smaller fish with only 2 feet length, he will still weigh on average 6-8lbs / 2.7-3.5kg. Now think of all the waste a fish of this size puts out.

There are articles online that speak about the conservative approach for stocking levels for koi and goldfish being 100-200 gallons per 1lb of fish. That would mean 600-1200 gallons for a 6lb koi alone.

Going with a minimum of 300gallons per fish independent from their size is already a much more dense stocking level and requires great filtration.

This is a great article about koi weight, size and stocking levels

http://www.matthewmc.../koiweight.html

and this a very informative pdf file about koi size/weight

http://www.rmkc.net/...t_Koi_Weigh.pdf

:)

Edited by Oerba Yun Fang

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That is so awesome!!! Its my dream tank! I long for the day when we can keep more Goldfish in a tank and eliminate the basic guidelines as technology advances. One day, evolution among Goldfish will change and their max adult size become smaller thus allowing us more of them. New aquarium gadgets are always coming out on the market making such tough tasks more breezy. Another idea I've thought of lately (never been tried before in history) is making a large sump (similar to Saltwater) underneath the main tank. It requires drillings, but I still hope that one day it can be done without drilling such as a gadget similar to canister filter to constantly exchange the water turnover between the top and bottom tank (and to do water changes thru the bottom tank without directly affecting/distrupting the top). When I move, I'm wanting at least a 100 and a very large tank underneath so that I can stock more and enjoy more without having to look at vast empty spaces. Good luck with your study/research! I feel that people missed the point of your Project Overdose. Looking forward to your findings/conclusions.

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I agree with Alex here. Right now at 20 gallons per fish minus the koi you're looking at 640 gallons of water needed to support these fish for their whole lives, maybe even more water. The koi put you over your stocking limit by around 1000 gallons. My suggestion would be to rehome them.

Like a few other people here, I cannot see this working out well. I'm sorry.

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SumoKoi - That is an amazing looking tank! The goldies look so awesome swimming together like that. It's good that you got the video before they all start dying.

Thunder - Speaking of aquarium gadgets I would like to tell you about the canister filter I am building. This probably isn't the space for it but send me an email. I would love to share it with you and get your advice.

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My email is ....., but feel free to make a new topic to share it with everyone. The more input from people, the better. I'm looking into creating one for my Goldfish tank by having a tall tank in the stand.

Edited by koko
email taken out for your protection of spammers

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Since you already have fish dying, between the tank and the pond(s) you probably will have enough space for the surviving goldfish. This assumes you have excellent filtration and make substantial (preferably continuous) water changes.

Please return the koi.

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It looks stunning, and it's great to see most of them will be going into a pond, but the 750g pond system will not be enough, as koi need 300 gallons EACH at a minimum size of 1.000 for even just one fish.

You have four, so alone your koi will need 1.200 gallons of pond to themselves. :(

:yikes I jumped when I saw that post. Koi are beautiful and all, but that's the reason why I don't want koi. ._.

Well you have to consider the size of these guys. The average koi grows to be about 30". Even if it is a smaller fish with only 2 feet length, he will still weigh on average 6-8lbs / 2.7-3.5kg. Now think of all the waste a fish of this size puts out.

There are articles online that speak about the conservative approach for stocking levels for koi and goldfish being 100-200 gallons per 1lb of fish. That would mean 600-1200 gallons for a 6lb koi alone.

Going with a minimum of 300gallons per fish independent from their size is already a much more dense stocking level and requires great filtration.

This is a great article about koi weight, size and stocking levels

http://www.matthewmc.../koiweight.html

and this a very informative pdf file about koi size/weight

http://www.rmkc.net/...t_Koi_Weigh.pdf

:)

Oh, never knew that. Thanks! c: I really thought that a koi the size of a goldfish would still need 60 gallons each. :rofl

Edited by dnalex

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they look lovely.. and i just subscribed to your youtube channel as i would like to see more of your discus too :)

i am sure you are staying ontop of your water changes, i would be aiming for 3 x 70% wc's per week at this rate and feeding every other day. they release too many toxins and problems will begin to show if a super routine is not maintained.

good luck.

Thanks, unfortunately I no longer keep the discus. I grew them up to a point where I was fulfilled with the experience and it was time to move on. Discus are as high maintenance as freshwater fish can get. I was doing water changes every other day or in any combination thereof to get 100% water turnover on a weekly basis. I had to feed them between 3-5 times a day while keeping the temperature high. Between the four tanks and multiple ponds it was becoming too much and thus the reason I sold all my tropical fish and turned to cold water goldfish & koi. I'm enjoying minimal heater usage now and a hardier fish. You're spot on w/ the protocal! I intend on feeding every other day and doing the major water changes 30 minutes after a heavy feeding. This of course will only continue for about another couple weeks before its time to go outside. So in the interum, the goldfish are proving to be just as much maintenance minus the electricity bill!

My apologies for saying this, but unless you are doing daily water changes (and even then), I do not know how many will make it to go the pond.

I know you already know, but that is just too many fish in that size tank, even as QT. We are an educational site after all, and it would be remiss of me not to point this out. :(

The protocol mentioned above should be just fine along with a vigilant eye. Fish importers, koi dealers and fish stores have been doing this for a very long time (i used to be a fish dealer). In comparison to the trade, I'm considered barely stocked. I only have about a week to go maybe before the some start making their way to the ponds.

Very nice!

WOW that is a lot of fish. lol

Good luck

congratulations and welcome to the world of goldfish. which is much more interesting and exciting than the old discus.

Nice looking fish.

Thanks!

It looks stunning, and it's great to see most of them will be going into a pond, but the 750g pond system will not be enough, as koi need 300 gallons EACH at a minimum size of 1.000 for even just one fish.

You have four, so alone your koi will need 1.200 gallons of pond to themselves. :(

Thanks, the 750g in multiple ponds are only for the fancy goldfish. I have larger ponds for koi and water changes are an extension of gallonage. But just for a matter of discussion, stocking levels are typically at the discretion of the hobbyist and their intended purpose. It is not good practice to assume hobbyist or people in general share the same ideology, application, execution, resources or prioritize values in the same manner. Just as there are standards, there are exploratory and experimental deviations from them, such is the foundation for progress. What if I told you that I saved these koi from being culled from a local breeder so that I could learned color/pattern development? or what if I was intentionally keeping them in a bonsai form? Or that I don't mind buying koi b/c I want to participate in the rebuilding efforts of the tsunami while enjoying one of their exports for a finite amount of time? I used to buy $20 of feeder goldfish/guppies/minnows a week during my predatory fish keeping days just to feed my collection, does the single feeder implore the same amount of emotional attachment or minimally required husbandry? Food for thought.

That is so awesome!!! Its my dream tank! I long for the day when we can keep more Goldfish in a tank and eliminate the basic guidelines as technology advances. One day, evolution among Goldfish will change and their max adult size become smaller thus allowing us more of them. New aquarium gadgets are always coming out on the market making such tough tasks more breezy. Another idea I've thought of lately (never been tried before in history) is making a large sump (similar to Saltwater) underneath the main tank. It requires drillings, but I still hope that one day it can be done without drilling such as a gadget similar to canister filter to constantly exchange the water turnover between the top and bottom tank (and to do water changes thru the bottom tank without directly affecting/distrupting the top). When I move, I'm wanting at least a 100 and a very large tank underneath so that I can stock more and enjoy more without having to look at vast empty spaces. Good luck with your study/research! I feel that people missed the point of your Project Overdose. Looking forward to your findings/conclusions.

Ehiem once made a filter just like that, a canister wet/dry, but it sucked, literally and figuratively. Its discontinued now. Lol...

I agree with Alex here. Right now at 20 gallons per fish minus the koi you're looking at 640 gallons of water needed to support these fish for their whole lives, maybe even more water. The koi put you over your stocking limit by around 1000 gallons. My suggestion would be to rehome them. Like a few other people here, I cannot see this working out well. I'm sorry.

See comments above.

SumoKoi - That is an amazing looking tank! The goldies look so awesome swimming together like that. It's good that you got the video before they all start dying.

They do look awesome for the short time being..but your assumptions. Remind me what is it they say when you assume?

Since you already have fish dying, between the tank and the pond(s) you probably will have enough space for the surviving goldfish. This assumes you have excellent filtration and make substantial (preferably continuous) water changes. Please return the koi.

See above comments.

Edited by SumoKoi

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Sumokoi,

I do understand, and as I explained in my post above, I wrote what I did to ensure that other readers who see this thread at any time will know that this is an extraordinary situation, and not for regular hobbyists. :)

Let us know how goes at the end of the QT, please, and I would love to see your pond system. :)

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Yes, please do post pictures of your ponds!! We're a nosy bunch, and love pictures. :)

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I am a little sad that you are planning on culling adult fish you think have SBD. They would have been culled for that at a much earlier age. Unless they are permanent sinkers there is probably a reason for bouancy issues. There could be bacteria or not ideal water quality due to an overstocked QT tank. Please don't cull based on floating issues that could potentially be fixed if hey had their own QT in the proper size. It is truly a beautiful collection and I wish you luck. You may want to rehome the koi though.

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I am a little sad that you are planning on culling adult fish you think have SBD. They would have been culled for that at a much earlier age. Unless they are permanent sinkers there is probably a reason for bouancy issues. There could be bacteria or not ideal water quality due to an overstocked QT tank. Please don't cull based on floating issues that could potentially be fixed if hey had their own QT in the proper size. It is truly a beautiful collection and I wish you luck. You may want to rehome the koi though.

This is a great point, being out in the pond, with the proper diet being supplied by just being in the pond, these issues may be non-existent.

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Sumokoi, thanks for sharing the pictures and descriptions of how you Qt and house your fish. I too used to raise Discus and angel fish ( 17000 per year) , but left it for koi and goldfish. I see that you have little loss only a few SBD after as you say weeks of QT. that is excellent and would like to learn more of what you are doing for QT.

Mine is similar but has many more steps needed besides the salt in order to maintain health and prepare them to breed.

Hope that you give more pictures of your setup and ponds too. i am always lookiing to learn what esperienced others are doing.

thanks,

Michael

I

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I decided to jump the gun and move a few of the fish outdoors. Here is a quick video showing my setups. The fountain pond is just under 600g and the other two are a little over 250g. I have another 3000g pond at the back of the house but the area is too messy for video. I also plan on painting the filter barrels once the weather warms up for more cohesive look.

Here is a link to the other thread: http://www.kokosgold...or-pond-setups/

Edited by SumoKoi

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Sumokoi, thanks for sharing the pictures and descriptions of how you Qt and house your fish. I too used to raise Discus and angel fish ( 17000 per year) , but left it for koi and goldfish. I see that you have little loss only a few SBD after as you say weeks of QT. that is excellent and would like to learn more of what you are doing for QT.

Mine is similar but has many more steps needed besides the salt in order to maintain health and prepare them to breed.

Hope that you give more pictures of your setup and ponds too. i am always lookiing to learn what esperienced others are doing.

thanks,

Michael

I

Hi Michael,

I have only one loss of a shubunkin that swallowed a piece of rock salt. The two w/ signs of SBD are alive and the issues only come up w/ colder temps or excessive feeding. I believe this is a matter of genetics independent of QT. I opted not to treat for internal parasites or fungus (w/ chemicals) this time around as the lfs had already done so for me. The one fish that still has stringy feces is a crown pearlscale that landed the same day I bought it. It had only been in the lfs for an hour or so before I took it. I may have to get meds for it if I don't see improvement over the next couple of days. My fish are too young to breed at the moment so there is no special prep other than fattening them up and providing the right spawning triggers when the time comes.

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you have some beautiful fish in there! I love the colors

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very nice. I like the outdoor ponds. nice goldies..

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