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Shubunkin Samurai

Breeding or Bullying?

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First off, I'm very glad I have someone to ask Goldfish questions instead of the Google Search Bar on my Ipod Touch :D Anyway, last night I got done with a hard one-hour workout in karate (50 pushups and situps :thud ) and I walk into my room to change out of my clothes. Then I see my Black Moor looking sort of pale, which was strange because usually my fish didn't change color and they are very healthy :o A few moments I see my two bigger commons chasing her around, mostly the middle sized one. (I have three commons, the big dominant male of the tank, then another following closely in size, and then the little guy, he's very small.) The middle sized common was nudging her stomach and pushing her around!! The first thing I thought (Out loud...) was "Are you going to lay eggs or something!?" Then I was getting really concerned and quickly changed and got the 10 gallon from the basement that we had put away a week or two ago. My Mom was getting confused or maybe upset about what I was doing. I had no idea what to do, I was so worried they were going to hurt her. I saw once at a hospital pond a bunch of male ducks harassing a white female duck. She had a huge bare spot with no feathers on her back, I couldn't remember if there was a wound or not. It made me so sad because I couldn't do anything :cry1 Just in case you need to know, I wanted to verify that the three commons are males. All three have white tubercles on their gills because I'm very sure it's not the Ich disease (Not sure how to spell it, but I know you understand what I mean :) ) The orange and white goldfish, plus the Black Moor are female. So, my Dad took my advice and put the Black Moor in the separate 10 gallon. For some reason, he insisted I put the other female goldfish in there as well, so I did. (I already clearly know how much room a goldfish needs. About 10 gallons per fish? The time when I got all those fish is when I never clearly knew how much space they needed :( ) So, they adapted to the 10 gallons very well and I fed them peas after school. I'm not sure if separation is the solution, but I really can't handle eggs or anything like that. I surely don't want any of my fish to get harmed, I love them a lot :wub: A few things may have triggered this. Based on what I know, it may have been the warm water change I did that day. I plan on separating them for a few days and adding them back in.

So the bottom line is, was this Bullying or an attempt to Breed? I hear that sometimes a Common will bully a Black Moor. (Again I'm sorry, I had no idea it was not a good idea to add Commons and Fancies together. That was back when I was a kid who did not know much about keeping Goldfish. I know that now though) It might have been overcrowding too, I realize now how many mistakes I made!! :no: So please help me, I'm still in training to have healthy, happy fish.

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I think its bullying. Moors are at a major disavantage, cuz they have poor eyesights and are slower. Its not recommended to have commons/comets with fancies, especially Moor. I would suggest to keep them apart. Commons/comets need a tank that is long due to their swimming nature. Typically, when establishing a tank for Goldfish, for fancies, 20 gallons the first Goldfish and 10-15 per additional. Plus, it also depend on the dimensions of the tank such as 55 standard can have 4 while 55 cube can have 3, something like that. Of course, many of us push the stock level base on experience (what we know and do, etc). Anyway, what do you want to do? I would think maybe returning the commons/comets and focus on your Moor and work on getting a larger tank. If you only want one Goldfish, the Moor, then get a 20 long or 29 standard. You may have two in the 29 standard. Another size option is 40 breeder, you can have 2 or 3 in that one depending on types of Goldfish. How long have you had your current setup? Not long, I assume? Most likely bullying.

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I think its bullying. Moors are at a major disavantage, cuz they have poor eyesights and are slower. Its not recommended to have commons/comets with fancies, especially Moor. I would suggest to keep them apart. Commons/comets need a tank that is long due to their swimming nature. Typically, when establishing a tank for Goldfish, for fancies, 20 gallons the first Goldfish and 10-15 per additional. Plus, it also depend on the dimensions of the tank such as 55 standard can have 4 while 55 cube can have 3, something like that. Of course, many of us push the stock level base on experience (what we know and do, etc). Anyway, what do you want to do? I would think maybe returning the commons/comets and focus on your Moor and work on getting a larger tank. If you only want one Goldfish, the Moor, then get a 20 long or 29 standard. You may have two in the 29 standard. Another size option is 40 breeder, you can have 2 or 3 in that one depending on types of Goldfish. How long have you had your current setup? Not long, I assume? Most likely bullying.

Well, the story is I got a 20 gallon a week or two ago. I already well know they don't have enough space, and I can't imagine how they got along so well in the 10. I've actually have had the 10 for at least a year or two and they never fought, nipped ect. Returning the commons? I'm not sure how Walmart would react to a two-year pet return. I've had them just as long as the Moor though. I would get a bigger tank and such, but I have very limited room space and still live with my parents. Plus, I can't afford another larger fish tank. Do you have any more suggestions?

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It sounds like breeding behavior to me, but it could be a number of reasons. I'd like to ask a couple questions to truly decide.

  1. What is the size of the main tank?
  2. Can you get your water parameters for us? (Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, PH)

Also, for the gallon rule it is 20 gallons for the first Fancy and 10 for each additional Fancy, and 20 gallons for each slim-bodied goldfish. Fancies, as you probably know, can get between 6 and 8 inches long, whereas slim goldfish can get to 12 inches in length.

[edit] I would suggest the same as Thunder did, as you are unable to home all of the fish adequately right now. You don't necessarily have to take them to Walmart again, as any local fish/pet store will usually take them if you call and ask. The 20 you have right now is okay for 1 fancy long-term.

Edited by ChelseaM

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It sounds like breeding behavior to me, but it could be a number of reasons. I'd like to ask a couple questions to truly decide.

  1. What is the size of the main tank?
  2. Can you get your water parameters for us? (Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, PH)

Also, for the gallon rule it is 20 gallons for the first Fancy and 10 for each additional Fancy, and 20 gallons for each slim-bodied goldfish. Fancies, as you probably know, can get between 6 and 8 inches long, whereas slim goldfish can get to 12 inches in length.

[edit] I would suggest the same as Thunder did, as you are unable to home all of the fish adequately right now. You don't necessarily have to take them to Walmart again, as any local fish/pet store will usually take them if you call and ask. The 20 you have right now is okay for 1 fancy long-term.

The main tank is 20 gallons, and I have no clue how to measure Ammonia or PH or anything like that :no:

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Ah. You'll need a test kit then.

My suggestion would be the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. It is a drop test kit that will tell you all of these things. This kit is the most accurate and economical kit that I know of. It is more accurate than strip test kits by far. Your local fish/pet store may have it in-stock, or your parents can go online and get it for you. I've found Amazon to be the cheapest place to find it.

20 gallons is suitable for 1 fancy goldfish long-term and since your parents don't want you getting anything bigger, I personally would suggest keeping the fancy goldfish and rehoming the commons. I know it is a difficult decision, but you'll be left with one much happier goldfish, and less of a maintenance schedule to keep them.

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Ah. You'll need a test kit then.

My suggestion would be the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. It is a drop test kit that will tell you all of these things. This kit is the most accurate and economical kit that I know of. It is more accurate than strip test kits by far. Your local fish/pet store may have it in-stock, or your parents can go online and get it for you. I've found Amazon to be the cheapest place to find it.

20 gallons is suitable for 1 fancy goldfish long-term and since your parents don't want you getting anything bigger, I personally would suggest keeping the fancy goldfish and rehoming the commons. I know it is a difficult decision, but you'll be left with one much happier goldfish, and less of a maintenance schedule to keep them.

I know exactly what you mean, but how would I rehome the commons? I don't want them to give them to a pet store (I've read all the horror stories of the terrible care they have...) or give them away to someone who won't take proper care of them! :(

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If you can find a pet store around that takes good care of their fish, then take them there.

Otherwise you can post an ad on craigslist and actually call and interview the people that may be taking the fish, to make sure they know what they're doing and have adequate housing for the fish.

Another option is to post down in our "Want to buy or Giving Away" section and tell where you are at and what you're giving away, to see if any members are nearby that could take the fish.

The final option I can think of would be contacting your local American Goldfish Association chapter and seeing if they could help you find a home for them.

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Grab a phone book. There should be a Local Fish Store (LFS) in your state. Hopefully close enough to you. Ask them if they are willing to accept your commons to rehome. If not, if there is a local fish club, join and ask if anyone want them. Or post on CL to offer free commons to rehome. I'm sure someone out there have a suitable tank or pond for them. Maybe if you know a place that has a pond, such as indoor pond at a funeral home, to offer your donation.

The 20 is great for your Moor. I would suggest you get this settled asap so your Moor can begin to settle down in her home again and recover.

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The final option I can think of would be contacting your local American Goldfish Association chapter and seeing if they could help you find a home for them.

Thanks! Will check that out.

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Those are good options I'm sure, but you know that feeling when you really don't want to give them up. I'm getting all emotional now :cry and my parents are gonna have no idea why. :idont

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If you can find a pet store around that takes good care of their fish, then take them there.

Otherwise you can post an ad on craigslist and actually call and interview the people that may be taking the fish, to make sure they know what they're doing and have adequate housing for the fish.

Another option is to post down in our "Want to buy or Giving Away" section and tell where you are at and what you're giving away, to see if any members are nearby that could take the fish.

The final option I can think of would be contacting your local American Goldfish Association chapter and seeing if they could help you find a home for them.

"Want to buy or Giving away" Is that in Koko's goldfish Forum?

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Those are good options I'm sure, but you know that feeling when you really don't want to give them up. I'm getting all emotional now :cry and my parents are gonna have no idea why. :idont

I know the feeling too. I've had to rehome 2 fish. :( It is a horrible feeling, but if you cannot adequately care for them and you know this, it is really the best option of giving them a place where they can grow big and be happy. Also, you'll still have your little moor and can watch her grow up happy and healthy in your care.

"Want to buy or Giving away" Is that in Koko's goldfish Forum?

Yes. Just scroll down to the classifieds and it is right there. :)

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When I relocated my commons, I brought them to a pet store and asked them not to go in the feeder tanks. They were ok with this, because they had been treated for parasites. You may find a store that specializes with ponds. They would understand not to sell them as feeders (hopefully).

Yes, that section is on kokos, near the bottom of the front page.

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All solid advice here. Even if you were to have a large enough tank for them, there is no way a female black moor can handle the spawning advances from male single tail(s), even if they weren't larger than her in size. This is one of the dangers of housing single tails and fancy variety fish together- the female fancies can't handle spawning advances from male single tails. I don't want to make you feel bad, but they may kill her when trying to spawn with her. They are just way too fast and rough with their attempts, and she won't be able to keep up. Sorry for the bad news.

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When I relocated my commons, I brought them to a pet store and asked them not to go in the feeder tanks. They were ok with this, because they had been treated for parasites. You may find a store that specializes with ponds. They would understand not to sell them as feeders (hopefully).

Yes, that section is on kokos, near the bottom of the front page.

Thanks...I found it after searching for a bit. You have to have 25 posts though, at this rate I'll be there very soon though. Thank you for relating to my giving away problem... :(

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All solid advice here. Even if you were to have a large enough tank for them, there is no way a female black moor can handle the spawning advances from male single tail(s), even if they weren't larger than her in size. This is one of the dangers of housing single tails and fancy variety fish together- the female fancies can't handle spawning advances from male single tails. I don't want to make you feel bad, but they may kill her when trying to spawn with her. They are just way too fast and rough with their attempts, and she won't be able to keep up. Sorry for the bad news.

I realized that, thank you. :)

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Tough love. Sometimes loving someone/something is letting it go. Such action declares your deeper love. Emotional. Distraught. Upset. Sad. Hurt. Yes. But you know its for the greater good. Letting go is loving. You just got to do it. Don't worry. You will be fine.

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