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Black Moor - gray slime coat; redness (bleeding) on fin joints


thesmitchell

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Test Results for the Following:

  • Ammonia Level (tank): 0 ppm
  • Nitrite Level (tank): -
  • Nitrate level (Tank): 80 ppm (today's reading. *looks* like 80 to me. I'm probably reading it wrong.)
  • Ammonia Level (Tap): 0 ppm
  • Nitrite Level (Tap): -
  • Nitrate level (Tap): 10-20 ppm (I have learned today that our tap water is suck. It's city water.)
  • Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.0-7.2 (up from 6.6-6.8 2 days ago)
  • Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.0-7.2

Other Required Info:

  • Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops (ammonia, nitrAte, & pH); no nitrite test kit
  • What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Rite-Size C
  • What kind of water additives or conditioners? Kordon NovAqua Plus
  • Water temperature? 69-71 F (cooler at night)
  • How often do you change the water and how much? 10% weekly (4 gallons)

  • How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 1 day
  • Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20 gal; ~1 year, in my house 6 mo (took tank when friend moved; they transported all the same water here.)
  • How many fish in the tank and their size? 2; one 3"; one 5". Measurement from nose to tail. I realize that they might be too big for thier environment.
  • What do you feed your fish and how often? TetraFin Goldfish Flakes; 2x daily
  • Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • Any medications added to the tank? Clout
  • List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.): Fungus due to horrible Ph (less than 6; tap water was reacting with the fish gravel; have replaced gravel with sand.)
  • Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
    • Black Moor - bloody or redness around fins where fins attach to belly & some mild (?) redness around maneuvering thrusters (side fins), slightly gray slime coat around top of dorsal fin and extremely thin greyish slime coat on eyes and around top of head.

    [*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

    • All fish - bottom sitting a lot over last 48 hrs
    • Black Moor - did not eat much yesterday. 3 days ago: was floating at top of tank with part of head & dorsal fin sticking out of water. I turned up the bubbly & performed an immediate water change. Immediately started bottom sitting after water change & oxygen increase.

    [*]List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

    • Lifeguard All-In-One treatment & Fungus Clear fizz tabs (June 2012)
    • Clout (just started today at recommendation of fish shop; said it sound like parasites)
    • Added salt yesterday as per instructions on the package --- tank has never had salt in it prior; redness on Black Moor appeared between yesterday & this morning, wherein everybody freaks out

    [*]You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

I need some peace of mind and want to make sure that the diagnosis I got from the fish shop is accurate --- or sounds accurate?

My Black Moor (appropriately named Poe) was floating at the top of the tank constantly a few days ago. As he floated with the top of his wee head sticking out, he started to develop a light grey film on parts of his fishy self that stuck above the water. This grey slime coat, as I'm assuming it is, has not spread at all. It has remained relatively constant in size. It's not thick & fluffy like a fungus. It actually just looks like his slime coat is a little bit grey. And if you look at him from a side profile, you can barely tell it's there. From a rear or front profile, however, it looks like he has this alarmingly huge chunk of grey goo hanging on his dorsal fin.

I figured that maybe there was not enough oxygen in the tank or something. So I did a Ph Test. It was a bit low. Around 6.4. So I did a water change & added in another air stone. Poe responded and immediately went back in the water. He stopped floating on the tank surface immediateyl. Next, however, he did a little bottom sitting & was rubbing himself on the decor in the tank.

Yesterday, I visited the fish store and relayed what was going on---bottom sitting, faint grayish slime coat in places (not spreading.) They said it sounded like a parasite and gave me some Clout. They also recommended that I add salt to the tank. This tank has never had salt. So. I came home with the clout & the salt and added the salt as per the instructions on the box (the fish store said to double the salt; that makes me nervous.) I did not add the clout right away. I figured one thing at a time. And salt is supposed to be good for the goldfishes, no? Both fish bottom sat all day yesterday and were relatively uninterested in food. This is not normal.

Today, I wake up to find that Poe has what looks like blood around his pelvic fins where they attach to his belly extending down his pelvic fins and a little bit of redness behind his pectoral fins. I add the clout.

Both fish bottom sat for the majority of this morning into the afternoon, occasionally darting around the tank. At one point, Poe very aggressively rubbed his head and sides against several decorations. Aggressive enough that I thought he might injure himself.

I turned on their tank light and they started moving around and stuff this evening. The darting seems to have decreased. And Poe isn't agressively rubbing against anything. but they're still bottom sitting.

I fear that this clout stuff is the incorrect solution and that tomorrow morning, I'm going to find a dead fish. When I first got Poe, he had a fishy friend. And there was a horrible problem with our water and their tank gravel. The Ph dropped so low it burned off their slime coats and Poe's friend, Napoleon, died. All inside the first 2 weeks of having them. I had followed the previous owner's instructions to a T. It was horrible.

There has been no fin clamping. No upside-down floating.

I don't have a hospital tank. And given that the other fish (the orange equivallent of a Black Moor; Jacques) is bottom sitting equally as much, I'm not convinced he is in good health.

Tomorrow morning, I'm going to do a 20% water change. I have to. It's in the clout instructions to do so. If they look like they're doing better, but not 100%, I'll probably proceed with another clout dose. If they are not doing better, I have some "Fungus Clear" stuff that describes at least one symptom: "read streaks on fins/body with no sign of skin or scale damage". It also lists "white-gray cottony growth/patches on fish", however the gray bits on Poe are not cottony.

I'm going to use bottled water instead of our tap water, which I'm told by the fish store is so incredibly horrible that scooping water out of puddles in the street would probably be better for my fish than running it out of the tap. O___O I have some bottled spring water to which I've added water conditioner --- it removes toxic metals. That will sit overnight before I add it to the tank.

I uploaded a video of Poe here: http://thesmitchell....58543&k=br68SxD

The other video was taken at the same time. All the images are from months ago when Jacques was first added to the tank.

Thank you in advance for the help. I hope these lil' guys live to see 2014.

Edited by thesmitchell
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Hi and welcome to kokos!

Unfortunately with a 20 gallon, you are overstocked. For goldfish, we recommend 20 gallons for the first fish, and another 10 gallons per fish added.

Are you able to get your tank and tap GH and KH tested, as well as nitrite? you can often have this tested for free at your lfs. You are not overstocked by much, which is good so there is no immediate rush to upgrade, but you will need to :) The reason I would like the GH and KH, is because you will need to be doing much larger water changes and the risk of a low GH and KH needs to either be identified or ruled out.

80ppm of nitrates is incredibly high, and the only way to remove that completely is a back-to-back 80% water change. 10% of water changed weekly is not enough for goldfish. Nitrates should not exceed 40ppm at the maximum, preferably 20ppm if possible. 80ppm is quite dangerous for them to be in. For now the water quality is the biggest issue, so can you do a back-to-back 80% water change? (remove 80%, fill tank back up matching temp, pH and conditioning, then remove a further 80%)When doing large water changes, it is important to match the tank temperature and pH, with the new water. Luckily your tap and tank pH are close enough so you won't need to do any adjusting there, just the temperature. This should get your nitrates back down to 0ppm.

For a regular water change schedule you will be needing to remove around 80% of the water every 3-5 days, however make sure to test your water before each water change so you are aware of the nitrate amount, which will help you decide how long you can wait and how much water you need to remove.

.

Do you have these on hand? If not could you please get them.

Aquarium salt

Praziquantel (PraziPro)

And depending on your GH and KH (if it is low), you may need a buffer (Seachem gold buffer will raise GH and KH, or bicarbonate soda is fine for raising the GH and maintaining a pH)

The symptoms (thickened slime coat, reddened fin joints, and irritation) are all symptomatic of external parasites, however I would also factor in nitrates having a toll on the fish.

Edited by Narny105
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I can check the fish shop tomorrow for PraziPro and get water tests from them at the same time---no one is open at this hour. What is PraziPro for? And what level of GH/KH should I be looking for that would require a buffer?

80%? I'm going to need more buckets. I assume that with this massive water change, the clout treatment will be terminated. Does dropping the nitrates that fast pose any risk of shock? Should I do this water change right this second? I have some water. I don't have enough for a second immediate 80% change. Should I use the tap water? It has 20 ppm of nitrates, or thereabouts. The nitrates will not be 0.

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I'm no expert I'm hoping one will be along soon. I would do the 80% this minute getting those nitrates out of there.. Use declorinated tap water that's the same temperature. Prazipro is praziquentel (sp?) its used to treat external parasites.

Edited by smegypsiren
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You will still need to do a back-to-back 80% water change tomorrow if possible. 20ppm is manageable and can be kept around 20-40ppm with water changes, so I wouldn't worry about not getting nitrates down to 0ppm in that case.

For water changes, you can get a product called a python, which is a water changing pump that connects to your sink. It makes it much easier than lugging buckets :) you don't need it, just letting you know if you ever wanted to consider a product like it

Praziquantel (prazipro) will be a much more effective treatment for parasites. I've just had a chance to view the videos, and due to the excess slime coat, you will need to do a salt dip (I will guide you through it) to remove the excess slime, which will also strip any parasites on the surface of the fish. However focus on the water first and getting what you need, then we can move forward :)

Edited by Narny105
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  • Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.0-7.2 (up from 6.6-6.8 2 days ago)
  • Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.0-7.2
  • How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 1 day

Hello, sorry you're having troubles with your fish.

I think slipping pH is a part of the problem here. You said that your tap water pH is usually 7.0-7.2, but that 2 days ago the tank pH was 6.6 to 6.8. This indicates your pH is slipping down into the acidic range as it sits in the tank for a while, and it means that your water's buffering capacity (KH) is too low. Luckily, this is a pretty easy fix though. Just go to a pet store or fish store and ask for some crushed coral. This is tiny crushed up pieces of shells and coral, and it's usually used as a marine aquarium substrate. Then get yourself a little mesh filter bag. Rinse the crushed coral well, put about 1/2 cup of it into the mesh filter bag, and add that to your tank. You might not have room in your filter for it (but if there is room, that's where you should put it), so for now just put it in the tank anywhere (near an air stone is probably best so it has good circulation around it). This will help keep the pH of your tank water stable over time, so it won't slip down into the acidic range anymore.

Excessive and peeling slime coat is a symptom of acidic pH, so fixing this will probably help with their slime coat issues. :)

So you can see what I mean, here's a video explaining how to do the crushed coral.

Edited by Sakura
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I must have a totally bunk nitrAte testing kit as the fish shop test came back at 20ppm in the tank today (before any water changes whatsoever; shouldn't it have read 80ppm if my test kit is correct?) The tap water came back way lower at about 10ppm for nitrAtes.

I ended up falling asleep last night and not doing the back to back 80% water changes last night. Partial paranoia that if the nitrAte levels went from, like, 80 down to something, like, 10, that the fishes would go into shock or something. Also because I didn't hear back immediately. And I was freaking out a bit and didn't want to make a bad decision.

This morning both fish had a crazy healthy appetite---they were even headbutting each other out of the way, which is what they usually do when all is right with the world. Jacques is back to his strange self and Poe is improving---less redness in the morning, though still red around the fin joints and down his pelvic fins a bit. He lumbered along periodically and then spent some time bottom sitting. But didn't bottom sit today nearly as much as yesterday.

Ammonia in the tank was between 0ppm and 0.25ppm. I did aggressively clean the tank out when this all started, including taking the water filter in the kitchen and giving everything a good scrub. My biofilter (?) was green with algae, so I tried to rinse it off. That may have been a mistake. Did I upset the cycle?

Nitrites are 0 on all fronts.

Ph at 7.0 in both tap and tank.

And now I'm realizing I totally screwd up and didn't ask for the GH and KH on the tap water. >.< But I did look for PraziPro. I could not find it.

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Was the test done with a drop test kit or a strip kit? And did you actually see the results for yourself? Definitely test the water again by yourself and make sure you follow the instructions, just in case something has been missed. The pet shop result was before any water change was done, correct?

I would still be doing the back-to-back change when you can.

Was the filter media cleaned in either dirty tank water or dechlorinated water? If not this would have killed off a lot of the bacteria in the cycle. If you haven't, it could just be a small bump and they generally sort themselves out within a week or two. Continue to monitor the ammonia daily. It should be 0ppm.

I would call ahead for prazipro to make sure they have it just so it isn't a wasted trip for you if you try another store :) Please still get your GH and KH tested, since the slipping pH is an indication of a low KH. If you can't get it tested, Sukura's post about coral is a good option to use anyway, so I would get some of that as it will prevent the pH slipping.

sorry for this shopping list! Let us know if you are having trouble!

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Okay Peeps!

Nitrates are officially down between 20 ppm and 10 ppm --- it's hard for me to tell. I have lots of red ambient light in the house. But I went outside and looked at the test under various lighting conditions. All signs point to orange. And I am under the impression that Orange means 20 ppm or less. Ph at 7.0, Ammonia reading at 0 --- I will keep an eye on that.

New development this morning: someone had a thick white poop. There were dark pieces in the poop. Maybe Poe is constipated? I read that white poop can be 1 of 2 things - constipation and bacterial infection.

Poe is not bottom sitting at all this morning and is very active! His redness of the joints on his pectoral fins hasn't changed much. And everyone was crazy hungry! This could potentially be due to the fact that I am feeding them significantly less --- trying to figure out how much to feed them so I don't do the overfeeding thing anymore.

I had a question: When I was getting the water tested yesterday, the fish store person said "oh yeah; neosporin". I showed them a video of Poe's redness. I'm reaching out to all my sources and learning as much as I can. Which I read works as a sort of preventative measure. I think I'm beyond that. And touching fishes wig me out. This is just a question.

I have a ~1 gal plastic fish bin (?) that I could probably use as a treatment tank. I also have many empty 20-30 (?40?) gal rubbermaid containers upstairs. In all my research last night, I read about putting fish in big plastic tubs. I didn't even occur to me that I have, like, 10 potential candidates for hospital tanks in my house.

I won't be able to do anything with the fishes for the next 4 hours or so. I have some obligations. But their behavior is much improved, and that makes me less worried that they'll be dead when I get back. I'm going to stop by fish shop #2 for PraziPro. They said they had it.

Many thanks!

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I'm glad they are both active and better. :)

Here are my thoughts:

1. The Neosporin can be helpful, but it doesn't solve the problem. Most often, redness at the bases of fins are due to parasites, especially flukes. So, unless you treat for the root of the problem, there won't be a permanent resolution. It's like bandaging a wound, but not stopping the blood flow first.

2. For that purpose, Prazipro will be very helpful, and necessary.

3. Instead of using Neosporin, I would like for you to do salt dips, and the 1 gallon plastic bin will be good for this purpose. The dips will also have a beneficial laxative effect. Could you get some aquarium salt, or even better (and cheaper), Morton's Canning & Pickling salt?

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I have aquarium salt already. And PraziPro now. And---just in case---I picked up some of that food stuff for internal parasites, what with the white poop today. I didn't want to have to make 2 trips to the fish shop if I needed to have some antibiotic fish medication for internal parasites.

Edited by thesmitchell
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Poe isn't bottom sitting nearly as much today as yesterday, but his slime coat on his tail seems thicker towards the edges (not, like, right on the edges; more like along the ends of his fins, not the base.) He swims around, but he keeps his dorsal fin and left pectoral fin collapsed. All other fins are open. Is it the salt? Should I be putting aquarium salt in the fish tank? The instructions on the box said heaping 1/2 tsp per gallon. And I was told I should be doing this. Is this bad?

I don't know who had the white poop today. I didn't see them go. It just magically appeared.

Ammonia appears to be ok. Ph-unchanged from 7.0. Nitrates still between 10 and 20 ppm.

I think the city pumped a bunch of chlorine into the water supply today. The tap water reeks. It's like opening a bottle of Clorox.

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Because the slimecoat has thickened, that needs to be stripped. I would do this before anything else. Stripping the slimecoat will also effectively strip any external flukes attached to the slime, and will allow the prazi direct access to the surface.

For a salt bath, the maximum time you will have him in there is 5 minutes. If he faints (they stop swimming and float for a few seconds) remove him after the second faint. Aim for a minimum of 2 minutes in the salt dip.

Here is the salt dip instructions. Please weigh the salt for this.

You will need a second holding container that is conditioned (temp and pH also matched) with an airstone for him to go in straight after the dip to recover. Salt dips are perfectly safe if done properly, but might be a little stressful for the first time :)

SALT DIP

1. dissolve 30 teaspoons salt/gallon of water (30 grams/Liter, or 113.7g/gallon). This concentration is 3%. Let it match the temp/pH of the tank, and make sure to add de-chlorinator. You can also use tank water, but because you are adding a lot of salt per gallon, you will need to heat up the water. Hence, it's crucial that you cool it back down.

3. prepare a holding tank. This is a tank that is pH/temp matched with the main tank, and has been de-chlorinated. This can be a 5 gallon tub, with bubblestone, or something bigger.

2. make sure you have some sort of timer

3. gently lift the fish out of the tank, and place into temp/pH matched salt solution.

4. start timer.

5. if the fish stays continues to stay upright, or tilts over but can get back up, keep him/her in the salt solution for exactly 5 minutes.

6. remove fish from the salt, and place in holding tank. The reason why we do this is to: 1) give the fish a place to recover by him/herself, and 2)to let the fish purge out ammonia/wastes in a place that is not the main tank.

7. if the fish starts to lose balance and cannot get back before the minutes, remove him/her and place in holding tank, as described in #6.

8. after 1-2 hours, the fish can be moved back to the main tank. He/She might still be disoriented, but should be fine.

Edited by Narny105
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Saw Poe poop. It was pink! No white! Yay! Now I just gotta watch Jacques poop. I'm going to figure out how to do this salt dip thing. And a second tank... Will a dark blue rubbermaid container work? I'll need to wash it out. Can I use soap in the washing process? How do I wash it?

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yes, the teaspoon is fine to measure :) it's a level teaspoon we measure out.

also, you can buy the prazipro from our wonderful sponsor TastyWorms.. he looks after us really well with pricing on products and low shipping. you can find him here www.tastyworms.com

welcome to kokos & goodluck with your fish :)

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If you cannot weigh it, you will have to use the spoon measuring option :)

I would be using a bleach and water solution at 1:20 then thoroughly rinsing and allowing to air dry. The drying process will also make sure that there is no remaining bleach. A rubbermaid container should be fine. The bleach will disinfect it. They are sterile containers safe to keep food in, so they are fine for water- it won't be set up for long anyway.

Edited by Narny105
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Saw Poe poop. It was pink! No white! Yay! Now I just gotta watch Jacques poop. I'm going to figure out how to do this salt dip thing. And a second tank... Will a dark blue rubbermaid container work? I'll need to wash it out. Can I use soap in the washing process? How do I wash it?

How's everything going? :)

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Ahh! Too soon. Poe has the teniest of fraying on his pectoral fins on the ends. Looks fin rotty. :headdesk:

Ack! Jacques has a bit of fraying going on, too, on his anal fins! Arrrgh

Edited by thesmitchell
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Did you do the salt dip? This can cause significant fraying if there were a lot of flukes there.

Here's the prazi treatment I would like you to follow :) Water change before starting, and make sure ammonia is at 0ppm :)

You need to add .1% of salt to the tank, which is 1tsp per 1 gallon of water, dissolved before adding. Make sure to replace the salt you remove during water changes. You can start this today if you are able to :)

A. FIVE DAY ROUNDS

Day 1: Big WC (>50%), add Prazi. Make sure salt is at the appropriate concentration. This is the beginning of Round 1.

Day 5: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 1.

Day 6: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 2.

Day 10: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 2.

Day 11: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 3.

Day 15: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 3.

Day 16: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 4.

Day 20: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 4.

Day 21: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 5.

Day 25: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 5.

Day 26: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi. This is the start of Round 6.

Day 30: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi. This is the end of Round 6.

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Oh! Yes. I did do the dip. Sorry for the long hiatus. I've not had a decent window to sit down and hammer this out.

Poe did remarkably well in the salt dip. He was in for the full 5 minutes without much of a fuss. He may or may not have passed out? It was hard to tell. He wasn't particularly motivated when I did it. Though he wasn't much to look at afterwards. Spent a lot of time bottom sitting in the special "tank" I had set up in a giant plastic bin. 10 gallons & an air stone. It took some coaxing to get him to move around so I could get him in the net & back into the tank after he was in there for a few hours. The bubbles from the airstone stuck to his slime coat. He looked rather silly, actually.

I've been doing the Prazi (1 tsp/20gal, as per instructed on the bottle) and salting the fish water (1 tsp/gal before adding to tank.) I don't know what the salt % in the tank is at this point, but it is certainly higher than 0. I never used salt before until recently. And then I was only doing the 1/2 tsp per gallon (like on the package.) Today is the big 50% water change + prazi. Would it be advisable to put the activated carbon filters back in the water filter on the "No Prazi" days? I worry about crap and stuff floating around in the tank that could be removed via activated carbon.

Will I ever need to salt-dip Poe again during this process? What are the criteria for determining when to salt dip and when to not salt dip? Besides obviously checking in here. I would much rather know what all is required for salt dipping fish, though. And to understand when salt dipping is appropriate. It was not nearly as horrible as I thought I would be. If everyone comes out of this alive and parasite free, you've sold me on the idea.

I picked up some API strip tests --- for quick look-sees that aren't particularly accurate but give me a general idea. If something shows up irregular, I have all the liquid tests to do a more thorough checking. It's very sciency here. I also have more aquarium salt. So much salt. That salt dip used up almost everything I had! I had bought the small carton.

For my API liquid GH test I had, 89.5 ppm for the tank water but only 71.6 ppm for the tap.

For the API liquid KH test, 53.7 ppm for the tank and 35.8 ppm for tap.

Not sure why there'd be a difference. Though, I did do some water changes with some bottled water once upon a time.

The strip test for GH/KH is pretty ridiculous to read. It said 60 ppm for GH and 0 ppm for KH.

Everything else is stable. No nitrites. A little bit of nitrates (between 10 and 20 ppm). Ammonia is pretty much 0 at this point and the Ph holds stable at 7.

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