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Tears in tail fin & white spots.


Guest Mr Grump

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Guest Mr Grump

Thank you

We will keep the lights off. Several of the fish have lost scales & the Red Cap has lost most of the scales on her side. Our cycle has been slightly damaged by the Paraguard. The Ammonia is zero, but we are getting some low level Nitrites (0.25ppm after 2 days). With an overstocked tank & the QT not yet cycled, it is difficult to manage & we are having to do 80% water changes every 2 days, with 20% gravel clean changes every day. I can see nowhere that suggests either Goldmed or API White Spot kills the filter bacteria. Which of the two products do you believe kills the cycle please?

The Goldmed treatment lasts for 5 days. I doubt that we can run our tank for 5 days without a water change. Therefore I expect that we would be looking at running with the Goldmed for 2 days, big water change & re-applying. We have a good source of Goldmed so can get more if needed.

The API White Spot Cure treatment seems to be in 48 hours bursts. This would suit our water change system better, but I don't have a good source of the product if we needed more.

We are both desperately sad & very worried about the fish. My wife is in tears as I am writing this. All the fish are looking very ragged & unhappy, on top of that, we have Star Fisheries threatening legal action against us. I think that this may be the last chance to save our fish & we need to get this right. Neither my wife or I can think carefully enough about this, but I think we need a course of action for tomorrow morning. We are dreading the thought of going down to the tank in the morning.

Our options are to continue with Paraguard. It's only been in use for 4 days out of it's 21 days treatment. We have enough product, it fits with our water change system, but I'm concerned that it is going to take too long & we could lose the rest of our fish.

API White Spot Cure may be the next option, 2 treatments over the next 4 days & it probably fits our water change system. I'm not sure where I can get any more if needed, but If I have 4 days to find something, I can get it online.

Tetra Goldmed looks to be the strongest? With each treatment lasting for 5 days, they recommend 10-15 days of treatments. We almost certainly cannot run for 5 days without a big water change. So we would probably have to do 50% water changes per day & re-seed the product after every change. If it killed the cycle, we would have to do 80% changes per day, or possibly twice a day.

We could also buy some Seachem Cupramine. It looks to be stronger & more targeted than the Paraguard, but it would take 3 or 4 days to get the product unless I phone around tomorrow & get lucky.

We're prepared to do what is necessary, but are worn out & devastated. We do not want to make a panic decision & cannot afford to make the wrong decision.

Please can you advise what we should do?

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Hello,

I'm so sorry to hear that you & your wife are experiencing such terrible things, and I am particularly perplexed and angry that Star Fisheries is somehow threatening legal actions against you. There is another thread running on the forum at the moment where an eBay selling seems to be taking the same tactic against his customers, which is to intimidate them into silence. Thankfully, in the other case, eBay actually stood up for the customer. In this case, let us just leave that place far behind, as they are of no use. The idea was to ask them to help in suggesting treatments, not to have them add further stress to the situation.

Here is how I see things:

1. Your fish are undergoing a series of big issues, and there may be more deaths. This is unavoidable at this point, and I'm really sorry about that. For whatever reason, these fish are loaded with parasites, and they are having to fight against a huge onslaught.

2. The plan now is to get everything out of the water, give them fresh water, and then use the Goldmed, because it seems to be the most easily accessible.

3. You are right in that you will need to monitor water conditions, and do water changes as necessary, with replacement of Goldmed when you do WCs.

4. We will review this every day, and provide support as much as you need.

Good luck!

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Guest Mr Grump

Thank you.

We have lost 2 more fish this morning. Scarlett & Pumpkin. Scarlett was a lovely little Red Cap, she didn't appear very ill yesterday it was a shock to see her gone this morning. Pumpkin was a lovely & intelligent fish. She was our beautiful baby. She learnt things very quickly & was the only fish who up to now would willingly come into our hands & cuddle us. We loved her so much. This morning also Cookie is terminally ill. Upside down on the surface & not moving apart from some mouth & gill movement. We are giving Cookie a clove bath & will say goodbye to her soon.

We are having a devastating nightmare. We tried to give our fish the very best of everything, spending more than we could really afford. We bought the fish from a source we thought was the highest quality, sadly & to our fishes great pain, that was not the case. We are so sorry to our little lost babies.

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Guest Mr Grump

Little Cookie has died in the clove oil without us adding Vodka. I hope that we were able to release some of her pain.

We are planning to move the remaining fish to our quarantine tank & treat them with Goldmeds. The reason for this is that at 90 litres it will be more manageable for water changes & we will do a big water change daily or more often if necessary. Is this a sensible option please?

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For the purposes of treatment, I don't have any objections to it, BUT there are some things to consider:

1) you must watch and make sure that the treatment tank doesn't accumulate ammonia/nitrite, and do WCs as needed. Are you using Prime or Amquel as water conditioners? Also, are you prepared to do WCs daily for two weeks?

2) the main tank will need to stay empty for about two weeks. The reason is that the two week isolation is to make sure that all the ich cysts die off, which they will without a fish host. The higher the tank temp during this time, the better. You will also need to feed the cycle of the tank during this time.

These two considerations are not trivial.

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Guest Mr Grump

Thanks for your advice Alex, we very much appreciate your help.

Our Calico male is refusing to eat this morning. He is showing red around the base of the fins, which I believe is not a good sign. The other fish ate their med food.

We are fully prepared to do daily water changes in the quarantine tank. We will water test twice a day or more if necessary (we water test daily anyhow). We use HMA filtered water which removes chlorine & heavy metals from the tap water. Our tap water does not contain chloramines, although the HMA will filter those too. We do not use any water conditioners as we bought the HMA to do this. We can also add water conditioners if you think it necessary.

We understand that the main tank would need to be fed ammonia to maintain the cycle.

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We are just getting the quarantine up to temperature. All the fish in the main tank look unwell & are bottom sitting apart from the male Calico who looks worse & is restless.

Once the quarantine is at temperature we will use tetra Goldmed unless instructed otherwise.

@Flipshere

Thank you for your suggestion, we will wait for a mods response. We have Goldmed here in stock with good stocks at our LFS. The necessary water changes would need a minimum of 50% water change a day. This will need a good supply of whatever meds we use.

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I only say that Goldmed like the Paraguard Which Ive used before (Paraguard) would be more of a "broad-spectrum" medi.. but Protozin targets Ich and when in free roaming form kills it quick

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Guest Mr Grump

Jasper, the Calico male has died this evening. He was a stunning fish. We eased his ending with Clove oil, I hope we helped his pain. He was gone before we added any Vodka.

Rest in peace little Jasper. We love you.

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We are just getting the quarantine up to temperature. All the fish in the main tank look unwell & are bottom sitting apart from the male Calico who looks worse & is restless.

Once the quarantine is at temperature we will use tetra Goldmed unless instructed otherwise.

@Flipshere

Thank you for your suggestion, we will wait for a mods response. We have Goldmed here in stock with good stocks at our LFS. The necessary water changes would need a minimum of 50% water change a day. This will need a good supply of whatever meds we use.

I don't think we have time to wait for meds to be shipped in this situation and it is best to work with what you have available. The goldmed has strong active ingredients that should be enough to treat the extent of this outbreak. The waterlife actually contains generally the same active ingredients as goldmed, with the one addition of copper.

Can you give us an update on where you are in terms of the goldmed please?

Jasper, the Calico male has died this evening. He was a stunning fish. We eased his ending with Clove oil, I hope we helped his pain. He was gone before we added any Vodka.

Rest in peace little Jasper. We love you.

I am so sorry you have lost another one :( I know this must be really awful for you and your wife. Just know you are doing the best you can for them.

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I actually think that Protozin and Goldmed are the same things, so either will work.

The active ingredients of the two are very similar, in that they both contain formaldehyde and malachite green.

The problem with Protozin is that it contains copper sulfate. Copper is a very good treatment, but it is so toxic on the kidneys that if you don't have a good way of measuring copper in the tank, you could easily overdose. Also, copper has a way of sticking around for a long time, and inflict damage later. I've used copper based meds before, and would not recommend it now.

I'm sorry, Mr. Grump. I really hope that things will brighten soon. Hang in there. We are here for you.

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Guest Mr Grump

We lost little Fudge this morning. She was such a sweet little Chocolate girl, she expired in a clove oil bath. We will miss her very much.

We tested the tank this morning, ammonia 0.25ppm nitrites trace. pH had crashed to 6.6. We immediately added some bi-carb & then did a 50% water change. We then added the appropriate meds.

Of the fish remaining Scooby, did not eat at all & is sitting half way up the tank next to the internal filter. His slime coat is flaking off, it does not look good. It is honestly shocking, he was such a beautiful fish.

Basil was interested in food but cannot seem to eat. He takes food into his mouth & then spits it out as if it chokes him. We cannot see any obvious obstruction, but that is by careful watching while he is in the tank. I am not sure how we can check more completely. Should we take him out of the tank to look?

Mango seems to be relatively well. She ate her meds, is pooping, & goes around the tank doing little Mango things. She however regularly rests on the bottom, slightly head down. Her dorsal fin has been slightly raised this morning.

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Guest Mr Grump

We had a look inside Basil's mouth. There appears to be no blockage, but the inside of his "cheeks" have lots of red marks - I assume blood. I think that it is possible he feels a lot of pain when chewing & therefore spits out the food. He did not eat very much yesterday & has not eaten today.

Mango is feeling a bit better, but she is constantly trying to attack Basil. Basil likes to sit in the middle of the tank & always seems to be in her way. We are watching them constantly at the moment & stopping Mango from biting. I am not sure how to help them tonight as Mango will also attack Scooby, but not as often because he is hiding by the filter.

Ammonia was 0.25ppm lunchtime, so we will do an 80% water change this afternoon.

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Guest Mr Grump

Thank you Becs.

Update

We did a big water change & replenished the meds. Mango has been picking on both Scooby & Basil. We had bought a little breeding net & decided to put Basil in there as he was being picked on the most. After we did that, Mango started picking on Scooby. We tried to DIY another one with a fishing net but it didn't work, so we have now put Scooby in the breeding net with Basil. It really is too small for them, but they can turn around in there ok. We did this because of Mango picking on the fish & the fact that Scooby is generally entirely still in the tank now. I can get another breeding net tomorrow, but we may be too late by then. For the moment then, Scooby & Basil are in the breeding net. If we put Mango in there on her own, I think she'd go crazy. Our other option is to put Scooby & Basil back in the main tank for tonight & treat it with milder meds that won't kill the cycle. The main tank being 240 litres would be a nightmare to do 80% water changes every day. I can then get a second breeding net tomorrow.

Mango is eating anything she can find. Neither Scooby or Basil are eating.

The breeding/isolation net is about 6" x 5" x 4". (http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/aquarium-supplies/fish-tank-equipment/fish-breeding/net-breeding-trap-fine-mesh.html)

We would very much appreciate advice how to isolate the fish. Scooby is staying in one place & has blood around his pectoral fins, he is not using them to swim as they must hurt him. He generally doesn't look too awful externally, but is not eating & the blood around his pectorals we know is a bad sign. He also does not move much. Basil is moving around but looks really awful. he has the blood around the pectoral fins & multiple red marks all over his body. The inside of his mouth is red & he cannot eat is it must be painful for him. We are continuing to tempt him with small soft bit of med food in garlic.

My inclination is to continue the strong meds as usual on Mango in the quarantine tank & to put Basil & Scooby in the main tank & treat that with less powerful meds so as not to break the cycle. We cannot handle very large water changes if the Tetra meds break the cycle, but I'm not certain they would? Please bear in mind that the quarantine filter is not completely cycled & that is why we are water changing there.

What should we do please?

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Guest Mr Grump

A reminder

These are the items we have in stock that claim to treat Ich:

Seachem Paraguard (in use)

API White Spot Cure

Tetra Goldmed

Other items in stock for fungus:

API Primafix

eSHa 2000

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Hi Mr. Grump, do you have a colander that you could float in QT, and place the two really sick fish in there? That way, they are still getting treated, but can be separated from the bully.

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Guest Mr Grump

Thank you.

We have a metal colander that has been in the dishwasher many times. Be all appearance it is clean, but underneath there are some parts of the design where bits of washing powder, food, etc could easily get trapped. It's not something that I would normally put anywhere near the fish unless essential. The size of the colander is such that it would only give approximately the same swimming space inside, but take up almost the entire tank space. There would be no room for our breeding net as well, because of the colander size & shape & also the heaters & internal filter.

At the moment, both fish appear relaxed in there, but I suppose also that they have little choice at the moment. I know that Scooby would not want to move, but I am sure that Basil would like to swim around.

At the moment we did not expect Scooby to get through today & Basil looks so awful, he is such a brave little guy. They are both still sticking it out with us & I must give them the best chance that I can. With more time, I can buy more nets & make them a larger space or even join several together. It's really a temporary decision for tonight as by tomorrow afternoon, I can buy more nets. We are talking about the next 18 hours. I will look at the colander thing again, but i think it may simply not fit & I'm worried about introducing something that may contain bacteria into the tank.

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Guest Mr Grump

It's night time now, we will go to bed soon. The 2 fish in the breeding net are still & don't appear too stressed. We have decided to go with the breeding net for tonight as that way they are getting the good meds & we are also protecting them from attack by Mango. Neither of the 2 fish are eating, although Mango is eating anything she can find.

We are expecting to do a water change first thing tomorrow. After the change, we will darken the room & cover the tank as best we can to keep the fish quiet. I will buy more nets in the morning & we will sew them together to make a larger isolation chamber. I will also buy more meds as we are going through them quickly with all the water changes.

We hope & pray that our little people survive the night & feel better tomorrow.

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