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Tears in tail fin & white spots.


Guest Mr Grump

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I just wanted to check. We are treating with salt, is that correct? I thought I recalled that we would be treating the main tank with Metromidazole?

Yes, we can continue with this thread :)

Right now lets just focus on the ich since this is the most apparent issue and can quickly kill a fish if left untreated. We will only treating with salt (to .3% same as described earlier in this thread) and 80F heat. You can do a water change now and I would actually encourage you to do frequent water changes (ever day - every other day) in order to reduce the number of free swimming parasites in the tank.

Like flukes, if one fish has ich it can be assumed that they all have it, so every fish needs to be treated.

There are unfortunately no guarantees that all fish will make it through treatment, but it is unfortunately not an option to not treat, as the fish will certainly become sicker if things are left untreated. Any treatment comes with inherent risk when fish are sick. On this forum we do our best to use only treatments that have well documented success and we always choose the gentlest possible option that will get the job done. For example, there are tons of medications out there to treat ich that contain nasty chemicals - you will not see those recommended on this forum often (if ever), as salt and heat is a much gentler and just as effective option. But even with 'gentle' treatments comes some risk.

The tank should not be treated with metro. That was specifically for the pineconing/bloating you were seeing with peaches.

Red veins in fins can be caused by stress and also irritation from external parasites (both ich and flukes can do this).

For ich you will salt the tank to .3% and heat to 80F. Keep salt at .3% for one week after you see the last white spot disappear. You may see an initial increase in ich, followed by a decrease until it is gone completely. This will typically take anywhere from 1-2 weeks for the spots to disappear.

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Guest Mr Grump

We had a little ammonia & nitrite spike last night in the main tank pre the water change. 0.25ppm ammonia & 0.25ppm nitrite. We did a 50% water change & this morning both ammonia & nitrite is zero. Not sure why it would spike, we should have a pretty good colony in there.

Fish health this morning;

Female Red Cap bottom sitting, doesn't come up to greet, but comes up for food. Swims around afterwards then bottom sits later.

Female Red & White, sitting against filter intake, doesn't come to greet, but wriggles a hello to us. Comes to eat & swims normally before going back to the filter intake.

We will check both filters for food debris now, then raise the temperature by 1°C to 21°C (69°F), then add the next salt to 0.2%.

Regarding water changes, we will try a 10% change daily, while doing a complete gravel clean. is that enough?

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Our female Red & White called Pumpkin appears to be panting. I have taken 2 videos & they are uploading now.

Should we still do the next salting to 0.2%? Holding off for the moment until we get the ok.

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Just wanted to stop in and let you know I have seen your video, and am discussing things with other members of the mod team. Ultimately, you will need to continue upping the salt dosage to .3% in order to treat the ich - the ich will just get worse if we do not move forward, but I am concerned about the fact that Peaches is now head standing. I want to get everyone's input on the moderating team. I (or someone) will get back to you as soon as we discuss. :)

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Thank you Tithra

It is Pumpkin who is the Red & White in the video. She does occasionally come out to greet us & plays with the others, but goes back to her position right against the filter intake. She is still eating. We had wondered if she found that the water movement helped her itching? Pumpkin was also head standing before the salting started yesterday. We did not recognise it as a specific issue, but assumed that it was a variation of the bottom sitting as she has found a position behind the filter pipes that is quite difficult for her to get out of.

We are holding off the next step of salting although we have already increased the temperature by 1°C.

URGENT

While I was writing the last message, my wife noticed that Pumpkin has started pineconing.

We are preparing the quarantine tank & awaiting further instructions.

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Thank you for the update.

I'm discussing this with Alex right now. In light of this new development, please hold off on upping the salt right now in the main tank.

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Guest Mr Grump

Thank you for helping us, we are both so worried.

Pumpkin is the only fish that cuddles us in the tank. My wife was able to pick her up & study her carefully. The scales are not fully raised & in fact may have gone down slightly to only slightly raised. It is now hardly noticeable. The pineconing may be there still but difficult to tell partly because she lost a few scales in breeding last week. We are still preparing the quarantine, it takes a while to do as we have to 100% water change & then refill & match the temperature.

We had both separately saw Pumpkin & both separately thought she was pineconing. Now she is pineconing only very slightly, if at all.

They were all fed just now & pumpkin ate normally. Pumpkin is still regularly returning to her location in the tank where she head stands. The main tank is still only salted to .1%

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Okay thank you for the update.

I have just spoken with Alex (dnalex) about your current situation and given what happened with Peaches and what is now happening with Pumpkin, I believe these fish are not only suffering from external parasites (ich/flukes), but also potentially internal parasites. The headstanding behavior is not typical. It can be due to several things including exhaustion, poor water quality, kidney damage, and internal infections (bacterial or parasitic in nature).

At this point I would recommend treating all fish for internal issues. Given this is the second pineconing fish in the tank, I think we are seeing enough of a pattern here to go ahead and treat everyone.

You'll need to make a gel food mix that is 1% metro and .5% flubendazole (the wormer plus). This will treat internal infection along with potential internal parasites. This should be the only food the fish are fed and they should be fed 1% of body weight a day - this can be a little tricky when feeding a whole tank, but if you can weigh at least one of them to get an estimate of about how much food each fish should be eating and try your best to make sure they all get a fair share.

Now, in terms of the ich, we think that upping the main tank to .2% and leaving it there (not raising it to .3% right now) is your best bet right now. The other option would be to go with a chemical based treatment (such as quick cure), but this will destroy your cycle and may be too harsh for your fish.

Please separate Pumpkin into the QT tank with no salt for right now. How is she doing in terms of the ich? Can you see white spots on her?

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Pumpkin still has tiny white spots on her - as do the others. Her pine-coning is very slight, it would be easy to say that she is not pine-coning, but more accurate to say that there is a ripple effect along her scales.

We will work on the gel food. Our metromidazole is in solution, 500mg in 100ml. The Wormer+ is a powder.

Do we treat Pumpkin in the quarantine with anything other than the special food? I'm thinking that she still has Ich.

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We wanted to check about the food.

We have Repashy Soilent Green in stock & also Agar Agar which is a vegetarian gel food that my wife uses to make veggie dinners for them. Can we use either/both? We have already fed them agar agar veggie gel food with garlic a short while ago. I'm sure they won't mind eating again.

Pumpkin has been head standing less often, but she always gets excited when we are there. I did notice that she is tending to float near the surface when not swimming. We are still preparing the quarantine tank.

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We wanted to check about the food.

We have Repashy Soilent Green in stock & also Agar Agar which is a vegetarian gel food that my wife uses to make veggie dinners for them. Can we use either/both? We have already fed them agar agar veggie gel food with garlic a short while ago. I'm sure they won't mind eating again.

Pumpkin has been head standing less often, but she always gets excited when we are there. I did notice that she is tending to float near the surface when not swimming. We are still preparing the quarantine tank.

Any amount of pineconing is concerning and worth treating. If you are only seeing a slight lifting it is likely you caught it early, which is a good thing. Any chance you could get a picture of the pineconing?

In terms of treating Pumpkin's ich, we are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Treating with salt isn't a great option because it can contribute to the bloating you are already seeing. Regular salt is not generally recommended for fish who have or have had dropsy in the past. After some discussion with Alex, we think that the best bet is to treat her ich with Mardel quick cure if you can find it locally http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B000255MSS

This product contains formalin and malachite green which will kill the cycle so you'll need to keep a close eye on water quality and do extra water changes to keep the water safe.

For the Gel food, you can use either. Like I said in your other thread, I have not personally tried using repashy to make medicated gel food myself, but have heard from others that it is difficult to get a good consistency food doing this, but that adding extra gelatin or agar agar to the mix can be added to help achieve a more solid consistency. Although the fact that the metro is a solution as opposed to a powder may help. You can feel free to make a homemade gel food too. Either one will work just fine. The only real concern is getting the ratio of food to medicine right :)

Please let me know if you need help figuring out exactly how much meds to add to your food.

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After a half hour search, I've not yet been able to find Mardel Quick-cure being available. Would any product that claims to treat Ich be ok & would that product need to contain formalin and malachite green?

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We have Seachem Paraguard in stock. Would this be of use for Pumpkin?

Seachem products are fairly well considered in the UK.

http://www.seachem.c.../ParaGuard.html

ParaGuard™ is the only fish and filter safe aldehyde based (10% by weight) parasite control product available. Unlike highly toxic and difficult to use formalin based medications, ParaGuard™ contains no formaldehyde or methanol and will not alter pH. ParaGuard™ employs a proprietary, synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green, and fish protective polymers that effectively and efficiently eradicates many ectoparasites on fish (e.g. ich, etc.) and external fungal/bacterial/viral lesions (e.g., fin rot). It is particularly useful in hospital and receiving tanks for new fish and whenever new fish are introduced to a community tank. For use in freshwater or marine.

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We weighed Basil who we consider to be a medium size out of all the fish. We used 2 separate scales to test the results. He appears to weigh 50 grams (1.76oz). Does this sound correct for a bit over 4" Oranda?

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We are trying to prepare 100g of agar agar gel food. Please can you help how much Metro to put in. Here is what we have from the vet:

Metronidazole 0.5% solution for infusion.

500mg in 100ml

Excipients: Sodium Chloride, Disodium phosphateanhydrous, Citris acid monohydrate to pH5, water for injections. Contains 340mg sodium.

Can we use this stuff & if so, how much do we use for 100g of agar agar food.

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We are part way through preparing the food & awaiting clarification about the Metronidazole & how much to use.

The quarantine tank is nearly ready & being warmed up.

After the quarantine is ready, we will transfer Pumpkin, then gravel clean the main tank, increase the salt to 0.2% & increase the temperature by another 1°C.

After a period of Pumpkin staying near the surface, then behaving normally, she has gone back to her head down position near the filter intake.

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We are trying to prepare 100g of agar agar gel food. Please can you help how much Metro to put in. Here is what we have from the vet:

Metronidazole 0.5% solution for infusion.

500mg in 100ml

Excipients: Sodium Chloride, Disodium phosphateanhydrous, Citris acid monohydrate to pH5, water for injections. Contains 340mg sodium.

Can we use this stuff & if so, how much do we use for 100g of agar agar food.

For 100 grams of food you'll want to add 1 gram of the metro and .5 grams of flubendazole. So ideally, 98.5 grams will be food, 1 gram will be metro, and .5 grams will be flubendazole - as close to this as you can get would be great.

My math isn't always the best so let me talk this out ;) 100ml is 500mg for your metro. 1,000 mg = 1 gram, so you will need to add 200ml to the gel food.

Your fish's weight of 50 grams sounds about right. If this is about the average size of your fish you'll want to aim to feed them each about 5 grams of medicated food across the course of the day.

I will get back to you on the Paraguard. I have never used that product so I just need to do a little research on it :)

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