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Tears in tail fin & white spots.


Guest Mr Grump

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Guest Mr Grump

Other Required Info:


  • Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level (tank): 0ppm
  • * Nitrite Level (tank) 0ppm
  • * Nitrate level (Tank) 30ppm
  • * Ammonia Level (Tap):
  • * Nitrite Level (Tap)
  • * Nitrate level (Tap)
  • * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 7.2, KH 2°, GH 4° HMA filter used
  • * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 7.4, KH 2°, GH 3°
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Master test kit
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 305 & Fluval 306
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? None
  • * Water temperature? 68°F
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 40% Every 3 days

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today 30%
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 63 gallons running 2 months full fishless cycle.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 8x Oranda 4", 2x Oranda 5".
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? 3 times per day, 25% sinking pellet, 75% Veg, SLC frozen brine shrimp once a week.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? All fish are new.
  • * Any medications added to the tank? None
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) None
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Salt grains on wen, fins & some whiet stuff on fins
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? None
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. No medication ever
  • * You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

ichtail.jpg

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Thank you for the info :)

So the white stuff you see on their wens is typical and usually considered a sign of growth. They are generally nothing to worry about and should go away on their own :)

The oranda above has fins that are in rough shape. The two white spots may be thickening slime coat/bacterial spots. Because of the pretty significant fin tears and the white spots I think that treating the tank for flukes is a good idea. This is generally a recommended practice around here as a part of the QT process for new fish since flukes are a common parasite in goldies.

What you can do right now is to salt the tank to .3%:

- Add 1 tsp of salt per gallon now - you can round down your tank to 60 both to make it an even number and because most tanks don't actually hold as much water as they claim once filled with substrate etc. You can use aquarium salt or any grocery store salt without any additives/anti caking agents (it is cheaper to buy regular salt than 'aquarium salt')

- In another 12 hours add another 60 tsp (you'll be at .2%)

- 12 hrs after that add another 60 tsp (this will get you to .3% which is a total of 180 tsp or 60 tbsp)

When you do your water changes you'll need to add back in the amount of salt you took out (e.g. if you do a 50% change, add back in 90tsp salt, if you do an 80% change add back in 36 tsp etc.)

In order to treat the flukes you will need either prazi (powdered or liquid prazi pro) or Kusuri flukesolve - I believe where you are you will only be able to get the Kusuri product.

Here's one link... I'm sure there are many other places to buy if you search around http://wormerplus.co.uk/

On a another note, with 10 orandas in 63 gallons you are considered overstocked. 15-20 gallons per fish is the typical stocking recommendation. I see you are being vigilant about your water changes so you may be able to keep params under control for now, but you will want to consider either upgrading to a larger tank or rehoming some fish ultimately.

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Guest Mr Grump

Thanks

I don't need to use Prime, as I use an HMA filter.

http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/Blue.html

Which tap parameters do you need?

We also have a quarantine tank. Would this be more suitable for treating an affected fish?

All 10 fish were recently supplied from the UK by a specialist live animal carrier by air flight. The fins could have been damaaged in this process as they were all in one big bag. Could this be the cause of the fin damage, rather than fluke?

We wanted 4 Orandas. Because of the substantial cost of shipping them from the UK, we bought an additional 6 with the intention of selling them to other fish keepers on the Island. The fishless cycle was specifically aimed to deal with a large bio load for a short period of time& this seems to be working well.

Today, the fish were fed a veg only day. The veg was part cooked & infused with garlic. The tank now smells of garlic, is it safe to leave ot like this or should we water change?

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All fish should be treated so no QT needed :)

The treatment for flukes (prazi) is a pretty gentle med and one of the few we recommend for prophylactic use.

Yawning is indeed another possible symptom of flukes, as well as redness in the fins (particularly tail), tail rips, white spots on the fins (can be a build up of slime coat due to irritation or secondary bacterial infection from the flukes), bottom sitting and flashing/rubbing behavior.

Let us know when you get the Kusuri or prazi and we can guide you through treatment :)

It's probably safe to leave the tank alone for now, garlic is pretty pungent ;) as long as there isn't any leftover food you should be fine.

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Also, it is a good idea to test your tap parameters if you haven't before (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) just so you know what you're working with. Some tap will test positive for these params and is important info to know.

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Guest Mr Grump

Thank you

We will test the HMA filter water, as the tap water is not used.

We have done a 20% water change, then a 50% change later on. This has removed most of the garlic smell. Both filters have had their foam swished & the filter bodies were emptied & slooshed with HMA water to remove food particles. The ceramic media was left untouched. Both filters were only offline for 20 minutes.

Fish today have been fed on Soilent Green in the morning, lettuce lunch time & peas this evening. As this is out first time with soilent green I think that we fed too much of it. The fish appear to be a little constipated as they have not pooped as much as they have done over the previous few days.

We cannot get Prazi, but have found a source for Kusuri. We will order it tomorrow.

With the Red & White Oranda that is pictured above, we have noticed that it's tail fins are slightly malformed. They are joined at the top. We wonder if it is possible that this malformation has caused the tear.

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I doubt that the oranda's tail formation caused the tear, as from the picture it appears there are a few tears in different spots - the joining of the two sections of tail at the top is a fairly common thing ;)

Let me know when you get the kusuri :) For now you can salt the tank as described above. This will assist with healing and help to guard against secondary bacterial issues.

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Guest Mr Grump

Here is the HMA water test results. As explained, testing at the tap is pointless as tap water does not go anywhere near the tanks or equipment.

Ammonia 0ppm

Nitrites 0ppm

Nitrates trace

Phosphates 2ppm

pH 7.4

KH 2°

GH 3°

Today, 3 males have become interested in the red & white female pictured in this thread. She has had quite rough treatment from 2 of those males in particular. We spent the afternoon preparing our part-cycled quarantine tank to put her in there. We did a 100% water change & put a plant & stone from the main tank in. We added 2 buckets of main tank water & the rest from the HMA. We spent the rest of the afternoon bringing the tank up to temperature. All this time, my wife had been guarding the female from the males. By the time the tank was ready, the males have now much reduced their attentions. The female has a few damaged scales on both sides of the body, but is now getting very little attention from the males. if we moved her to the quarantine tank it is not completely cycled, so we would have to treat it as a fish-in cycle.

Should we move her?

In addition, I obtained the aquarium salt today as we only had cooking salt in the house. We have not yet salted the tank & I have held off to await advice.

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If the behavior has calmed down I would actually recommend leaving her in the main tank. Spawning behavior can certainly be rough on females, but separating her if she is full of eggs has the potential to lead to other issues such as her becoming egg bound.

If you see she is getting tired or appears to need a break you can float her in the tank in a colander for awhile.

Go ahead and salt the main tank as described above. The HMA readings look :)

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Guest Mr Grump

Thanks

I'm concerned about measuring the salt required. A "tsp" (teaspoon?) seems a rough measurement multiplied by a large numeric quantity. We have teaspoons the bigger of which can be 50% larger than the smallest. In addition I have the gallons to litres conversion to create an addition margin of error. (The US seems to have 2 types of gallons too.)

The tank is actually 240 litres (less substrate + filters). Salting to 0.3% would be 0.72 litres of salt? Meaning pretty well a wine bottle full of salt? It seems an awful lot of salt & is the reason that I am asking for clarification before I do something awful to the fish.

I'm also pretty sure that I don't have enough salt if it will need 3 wine bottles+ worth. :(

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I really like to weigh the salt whenever I need to use it.

I also have a 240 litre tank, you have to gradually increase the salt, here's how I do it;

.1% = 240 grams of salt to start,

12 hours later add another 240 grams = .2%,

12 hours later add another 240 grams = .3%

Salt content in total = 720 grams

If you did a 50% water change, you would have to replace 360 grams of salt.

Hope this helps and makes sense! ;)

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You can use that too. :) For future reference, plain canning and pickling salt is perfectly safe. Here, a box of aquarium salt would cost $8. A box of canning salt is $1.50, and the box is about three to four times bigger.

I finally saw the picture, and to me it looks like her tail got a kink from being in the bag. With some salt or even just clean water, the kink and the tears should heal in no time. :) However, you should do the flukes treatment as that is a good standard practice for new fish.

Mr.Grump, have you posted a picture of all of them yet?

Edited by ShawneeRiver
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I cannot find Fluke Solve, but can find Flue-M. Is this the correct product?

http://wormerplus.co.uk/retail_shop/index.php?productID=21

Buying more salt today.

This will work fine too. It's a flubendazole based product instead of prazi based, which is fine.

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I found the picture of all of them. Nice!! You might have trouble choosing which to keep! :)

Btw, if your plants are real, you probably should remove them when you salt the tank. The salt can kill all but the hardiest plants, and enough salt will kill all of them.

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Guest Mr Grump

The Wormer Plus is on it's way, we now have the salt in stock. The tank is not yet salted.

I wanted to update you on the fish.

One of the females (a Red Cap) has lost a number of scales from her side after the mating behaviour yesterday. She appears otherwise to be fine & is eating well. We have a Chocolate which we believed to be constipated. She has been preferring to sit on the substrate near a corner, but she seems comfortable moving if another fish wants to check the substrate near her. She is not avoiding the other fish & the other fish are not purposefully bothering her. She has been eating peas with the rest of the fish but is preferring to sit still most of the time. No obvious external problems & we have seen some very small poops from her. She swims normally. No yawning. Tank stats are 0/0, temp 20°C. The quarantine tank is still not yet cycled.

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Since quarantine's normally are a small enough water volume to accomodate 100% daily water changes, waiting for it to cycle isn't necessary unless you cannot commit to the increased water change schedule.

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Guest Mr Grump

Thank you, I was just mentioning the quarantine tank's state. It's a 90 litre with internal filter.

I was concerned about starting salting & Fluke treatment, when there is an unwell fish present. Can the forum advise how to diagnose the Chocolate & whether her condition would affect the tank treatment?

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