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Pearlscale lifespan, shortened by roundness?


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Though I am hoping that for newer pearlscale keepers (like me) if someone could explain what a Tiku, hamanishiki and whatever other types there are. From what it sounds like, this seems to have an impact on their shape/lifespan so I am hoping for some clarification, thank you (:

Tiku means "mouse" and was given by Malay breeders to the short finned types without wen. Tikus are generally the most extreme as far as roundness like this little guy:

290pmy8.jpg

Hamanishiki is the Japanese word for the Crowned pearlscale. This fish are often round but not nearly to the same degree at tikus.The ideal wen for a hamanishiki is one symmetrical bubble, but they're most commonly found with two bubbles. They also more often sport longer finnage.

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dual lobed wen

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single dome wen

Typically hamanishikis that are found commercially in petstores are less extreme than tikus and they therefore have less of a chance of having mobility issues due to roundness or SBD.

My pearlies are all from LFSs or petstores and you can see they do vary and you can find more extreme specimens in LFSs too.

DSC08449.jpg

^Roos is a hamanishiki

DSC08441-1.jpg

Cider is a young hamanishiki

DSC08408-2.jpg

Ushi is a young tiku that most likely had hamanishiki somewhere in his lineage. Some of his siblings were strict tikus, much rounder and with short peduncles and finnage, while some had strong peduncles with longer finnage, all were the heavy "blue ridge" calico color he is.

Edited by Pearlscaleperfect
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I've also heard with pearlscales, whatever the variety, have shorter lifespan because of how small their gene pools are. Which I think makes since they have more specific characteristics that are being selectively bred for: wen type, calcified scales, round body types and short fins which means more controlled breeding, and thus shorter lives.

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Great thread. I didn't realize pearl scales have many branch offs with different shapes. My pearlscale is long but developing a round belly. My ryukin has the roundest belly and suffers from swim bladder issues. I hope then pearlscale won't be effected....since they have a history of health issues.

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So please forgive my ignorance but what fancy lines are then longer lived? Fantails? orandas? any others?

It is so hard to have a pet who doesn't thrive when you have put so much work and energy into their well being.

Edited by cmclien
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I have not piped in but I have felt the need to express my opinion. For that reason it should probably be ignored.

Show quality fish get different care than pet quality fish. Unless you are purchasing a show quality fish you probably aren't receiving the extremes of a breed. There of course is always exceptions.

The age limit of a goldfish is an estimate. It's an average and they came up with 10 years. My viewpoint is that a fish gets the best care from me I can give and it lives until it dies be it 2 yrs or 20 yrs. I also cannot guarantee the care of a goldfish before I receive it, most goldifsh are imported, shipped from far away.

I don't know how it could impact their health but I can understand that being shipped in a box of water for how many days could put some overall stress on a fish or allow parasites and bacteria conditions to proliferate. I don't know how their body shape could impact their lifespan but I can understand the struggles of raising a goldfish with a deformed mouth or a bent spine and how that could make the goldfish susceptible to a poorer lifestyle and constant difficulty.

I buy goldfish on the set of characteristics I like which may or may not be a breed standard.

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So please forgive my ignorance but what fancy lines are then longer lived? Fantails? orandas? any others?

It is so hard to have a pet who doesn't thrive when you have put so much work and energy into their well being.

Basically, the closer they are to normal body form the more likely they are to live long. Fantails are the least mutated and the "hardiest" of fancy types, but for any fancy type, the longer the body is, the more likely it will lead a long healthy life. The short, fat body of fancies results from an arched spine that crowds internal organs together. This is a clear cause of their susceptibility to swim bladder disorders, but also has to have other effects.

But I don't buy the argument that it's "cruel" to keep fish with mutations that limit their ability to thrive. Goldfish are smart, but they don't have the ability to realize that they could be living in a wonderful pond instead of a glass box. They don't know that other fish can see better than they do, and while they may observe that others swim faster, they certainly don't know why. What matters to a goldfish is food, companionship, and pleasant, familiar water.

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But I don't buy the argument that it's "cruel" to keep fish with mutations that limit their ability to thrive. Goldfish are smart, but they don't have the ability to realize that they could be living in a wonderful pond instead of a glass box. They don't know that other fish can see better than they do, and while they may observe that others swim faster, they certainly don't know why. What matters to a goldfish is food, companionship, and pleasant, familiar water.

:goodpost

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I have a crowned pearlscale. She's young still but is forming a wen. It looks like it's divided in two parts. She has a little round belly and her tail looks like it's getting long to me. We love all 4 of our pet fish and will be happy for however long they live. I know this site is helping me with keeping them as healthy as possible because if I have a concern or want to know something I can turn here. :)

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So please forgive my ignorance but what fancy lines are then longer lived? Fantails? orandas? any others?

It is so hard to have a pet who doesn't thrive when you have put so much work and energy into their well being.

Basically, the closer they are to normal body form the more likely they are to live long. Fantails are the least mutated and the "hardiest" of fancy types, but for any fancy type, the longer the body is, the more likely it will lead a long healthy life. The short, fat body of fancies results from an arched spine that crowds internal organs together. This is a clear cause of their susceptibility to swim bladder disorders, but also has to have other effects.

But I don't buy the argument that it's "cruel" to keep fish with mutations that limit their ability to thrive. Goldfish are smart, but they don't have the ability to realize that they could be living in a wonderful pond instead of a glass box. They don't know that other fish can see better than they do, and while they may observe that others swim faster, they certainly don't know why. What matters to a goldfish is food, companionship, and pleasant, familiar water.

This was a wonderful post. :)

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^ I do remember there was a phase in this forum where Tikus, or pearlscales in general were unpopular. Most members preferred to have orandas, ryukins, ranchu and/or telescopes. Ranchudressing was the only exception that I can remember that was actively trying to keep them. So to be fair there wasn't enough data being collected to attest to the longevity of these fish.

I've noticed that recently there has been a boom of pearlscale keepers online, myself included, it'll just be a waiting game to see how ours do, and with our accumalitive experiences what we'll learn to be a general fact. It'll be an interesting topic to keep updated, in the very least. If Pearlscales/tikus can survive past two years I bet it'll be a KOKO user's fish that will do it.

As for my chances, I do worry, because my pearlie does have the popular round shape:

nikejv.jpg

She's prone to floatiness but so far it hasn't been something that one night of fasting won't cure.

She's done incredibly well adapting to the higher nitrates I have in my tanks, and the cooler water temps so I am optimistic. Time will tell though what kind of life she'll lead under my care.

Edited by Hzleys87
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^ I do remember there was a phase in this forum where Tikus, or pearlscales in general were unpopular. Most members preferred to have orandas, ryukins, ranchu and/or telescopes. Ranchudressing was the only exception that I can remember that was actively trying to keep them. So to be fair there wasn't enough data being collected to attest to the longevity of these fish.

I've noticed that recently there has been a boom of pearlscale keepers online, myself included, it'll just be a waiting game to see how ours do, and with our accumalitive experiences what we'll learn to be a general fact. It'll be an interesting topic to keep updated, in the very least. If Pearlscales/tikus can survive past two years I bet it'll be a KOKO user's fish that will do it.

The first goldies I really took care of properly were pearlies! It was in 09 at the same time that Ranchudressing was going through her little ones. They are becoming more popular, which imo is a good thing, because 2-3 years ago I never saw one in anything but my LFS and now I've seen tikus at one petstore and crowns at a petco near my house. I'm curious to see how Ushi develops because he's my first tiku since my originals passed away. Hamanishikis tend to have less problems although I did have one that dropped dead for no apparent reason, just fine and then gone the next morning. Roosevelt is pretty hardy for a pearlie imo, she's put up with a lot of my mistakes and still has marked growth in the past few years but mostly in girth and fin length. Your pearlie is absolutely stunning, how large is she?

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This is a bit of a side topic, but it's related. I have been having the same type of issues when it comes to round bodied orandas. All of this was pre-soilent green, of course. Now that SG is a large part of their staple, we will see how things go.

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This is a bit of a side topic, but it's related. I have been having the same type of issues when it comes to round bodied orandas. All of this was pre-soilent green, of course. Now that SG is a large part of their staple, we will see how things go.

I think this topic can certainly end up discussing any type of goldfish with a more rounded body. I've honestly only had problems with Roosevelt after I started feeding progold which made her gulp and then made her unstable from the gulping. She never gets "floaty" per say she just get less and less able to control herself, and due to her high and weak peduncle she tends to list forward when this happens. SG has stopped it altogether though, and she only gulps when I do waterchanges, which I suspect is just due to stress. My feeding plan for my young pearlscales is 1/3 pellet mix and 2/3 SG/fresh greens. Roos hardly gets any pellets, maybe 3-5 per day because she's so sensitive to them, I can feed more if I feed omega one and even more if I feed Hikari Lionhead, I don't know why exactly this is.

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Does anyone know if there is a common physiological reason for the short lives of round-bodies? Stakos seems to indicate that she does not feel that they are particularly vulnerable to parasites.

This is just theory, based on my observations:

A floaty fish is an extremely stressed fish, and round-bodied fish can get floaty quite easily if you don't watch what they eat and how much they eat. Stressed fish are very prone to infections, and they also send out other physiological signals to mess with their bodies, for lack of better words. I don't think that they are particularly vulnerable to parasites, but they do have weakened immune systems, which makes them vulnerable to infections in general.

Eventually, if they don't succumb to an infection, they end up becoming sinkers, which can then bring on a host of other issues.

None of this is to say don't get round bodied fish, etc. I don't want to make any sort of judgement on that. What I am saying is that you do want to watch both the content and the quantity of the food these fish eat, more so that the more long bodied ones.

It's like lefties. We tend to die younger than righties. :rofl

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She never gets "floaty" per say she just get less and less able to control herself, and due to her high and weak peduncle she tends to list forward when this happens. SG has stopped it altogether though, and she only gulps when I do waterchanges, which I suspect is just due to stress.

A bit of a side topic, but both of mine gulp after every meal, I don't know if its habit or what but they really go for any bubbles in the tank after eating. Most of their meals are SG and seaweed. This combination has cut down on the gulping but the behavior is still there. A few days a week they get blood worms. They are way less floaty then they used to be though it seems like late at night they are at the top of the tank but I don't know if this is because they like to be up there or because they are stuck up there, (the oranda more then the fantail). In the morning they are sleeping on the floor and then seem good to go for another day. I do feel the SG has helped with these buoyancy issues alot but I just don't understand the gulping.

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Well, don't forget that goldfish regulate their SB in part by gulping air, so it's not necessarily extraordinary behavior. There are other reasons for why they might do it, including a speculated thin film of oil from the food.

Like with everything else, it's when it's excessive and/or when it presents with problems that we it becomes a concern. Otherwise, keep with good food and good water! :)

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She's done incredibly well adapting to the higher nitrates I have in my tanks, and the cooler water temps so I am optimistic. Time will tell though what kind of life she'll lead under my care.

Gorgeous fish. Are your high nitrates from your tap water?

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