SBD: Two Sinkers

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

• * Ammonia Level (tank): 1.0
  
• * Nitrite Level (tank) 0.0
  
• * Nitrate level (Tank) 40.00
  
• * Ammonia Level (Tap): 0.0
  
• * Nitrite Level (Tap) 0.0
  
• * Nitrate level (Tap) 0.0
  
• * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
  
• * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)7.5
  Other Required Info:
  
• * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API master test kit liquid drops.
  
• * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 200 (up to 50gals 200GPH)
  
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Sera brand, not sure what it's called exactly.
  
• * Water temperature? Unknown, no heater
  
• * How often do you change the water and how much? Previously 25% once a month (if that) then weekly.
  

• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Unknown
  
• * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20 gallons, a year.
  
• * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 approx. 5"
  
• * What do you feed your fish and how often? Omega One sinking goldfish pellets. They were really small though.
  
• * Any new fish added to the tank? No.
  
• * Any medications added to the tank? Unknown.
  
• * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) SBD, sinking.
  
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  
• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? See above.
  
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Unknown, I suspect nothing.
  

The information above is for BEFORE I got the fish. As it stands their current set up is this.

• * Ammonia Level (tank): 0.0
  
• * Nitrite Level (tank) 0.0
  
• * Nitrate level (Tank) 0.0
  
• * Ammonia Level (Tap): 0.0
  
• * Nitrite Level (Tap) 0.0
  
• * Nitrate level (Tap) 0.0
  
• * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.5
  
• * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.5
  Other Required Info:
  
• * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API master test kit liquid drops.
  
• * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 200 (up to 50gals 200GPH) on one, nothing on another.
  
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Nutrafin water conditioner.
  
• * Water temperature? 70F
  
• * How often do you change the water and how much? Currently going to do 50% weekly on the filtered tank and 50% twice weekly on the unfiltered until I get a filter.
  

• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? n/a
  
• * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? Two 20 gallons, running for a day but used old filter media in the one with a filter.
  
• * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 goldfish per tank, approx. 5"
  
• * What do you feed your fish and how often? Going to do the pea treatment then switch to Omega One medium goldfish pellets (presoaked) and frozen bloodworms.
  
• * Any new fish added to the tank? No.
  
• * Any medications added to the tank? Aquarium salt (1tbsp per 5 gallons)
  
• * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) SBD (sinking)
  
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  
• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? See above.
  
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Just the salt.
  

Ok, so, preface. I just recieved (a few hours ago) two fancy goldfish from a customer at my job. I work at a pet store. I'm not going into much detail about who I got them from or anything like that online. But let's say the conditions were less than ideal. The customer could no longer take care of them and I offered to take them.

They used to be in a 5gal, then after a year or so upgraded to a 20gal. It had a filter, air stones, pea gravel, and a plastic smooth stone decoration. The owner had problems with green water and the fish sinking and was completely at a loss as to what to do (even with proper advice...) and they just were fed up so I offered to take the fish.

So they are currently in two bare bottom 20 gallon tanks. One has a filter and an air stone, the other has a heater and an air stone but no filter. I will obviously get a filter asap. I did some reading about SBD and I know it can be caused by anything and may be chronic. If worst comes to worst they get X rays, possibly aspirate some air, and harnesses to manage it. My HOPE is that it was caused by nitrate poisoning and will go away with clean water and time.

So, questions:

What is this clear bubble on the pearscales side?

Is the pearscale bloated or just deformed?

Is 50% twice weekly ok for water changes on the unfiltered tank?

Water test results:

Them in the bucket:

Setting up the tanks (incomplete in this pic)

The pearscale is SO deformed.

The fantail seems to have a small sore on his side, probably from sinking into pea gravel:

Videos coming soon.

[dnalex 13,633]

Hello -

I will visit back to this thread later, but I just wanted to quickly ask if you have this:

- Epsom salt

- Metro-Meds (goldfishconnection.com)

- metronidazole (LFS)

Are they eating?

The pearlscale isn't deformed. He has dropsy

[tithra 4,917]

Welcome to the forum!

The first thing you can do a 100% water change or two back to back 80% changes (matching tank and tap temp and Ph) to get the aquarium salt out of both tanks. The salt will exacerbate the bloating unfortunately.

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

I have Tetra Parasite gaurd, which has metronidazole and praziquantel and some other anti parasitics. But I saw their poo today and it looks normal. I haven't heard of Metro-Meds.

UGHAHSJKAHJKS I can never tell if pearscales have dropsy or not! They all look like they have dropsy to me. Otherwise I would have never added the salt Ug. Ok so 100% water changes to get the salt out. I don't have epsom salt but I can get some and do a bath. For both or just the pearscale?

Thank you for the replies.

[ShawneeRiver 2,720]

Ugh, those poor fish looks so awful. Good for you for taking them. Best of luck with them.

[tithra 4,917]

I have Tetra Parasite gaurd, which has metronidazole and praziquantel and some other anti parasitics. But I saw their poo today and it looks normal. I haven't heard of Metro-Meds.

UGHAHSJKAHJKS I can never tell if pearscales have dropsy or not! They all look like they have dropsy to me. Otherwise I would have never added the salt Ug. Ok so 100% water changes to get the salt out. I don't have epsom salt but I can get some and do a bath. For both or just the pearscale?

Thank you for the replies.

Metromeds are a medicated food that is the gold standard for treating dropsy. You can buy them at goldfishconnection.com

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/details.php?productId=9&catId=5

If you are unable to order them here we also have a member who has generously offered to ship a small portion of meds for just the cost of shipping. Let us know which option would work best for you

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

I have Tetra Parasite gaurd, which has metronidazole and praziquantel and some other anti parasitics. But I saw their poo today and it looks normal. I haven't heard of Metro-Meds.

UGHAHSJKAHJKS I can never tell if pearscales have dropsy or not! They all look like they have dropsy to me. Otherwise I would have never added the salt Ug. Ok so 100% water changes to get the salt out. I don't have epsom salt but I can get some and do a bath. For both or just the pearscale?

Thank you for the replies.

Metromeds are a medicated food that is the gold standard for treating dropsy. You can buy them at goldfishconnection.com

http://www.goldfishc...uctId=9&catId=5

If you are unable to order them here we also have a member who has generously offered to ship a small portion of meds for just the cost of shipping. Let us know which option would work best for you

You guys are so wonderful. I am able to buy the meds myself but thank you SO MUCH for the offer. I just ordered the 8oz one now.

Just got done with the water change on the pearscales tank too... should I do it on the fantails as well? Or is he ok? If I don't get an answer today I'll just go ahead and do a 100% change, no harm in that. Just as a precaution.

Also, I planned on doing the pea treatment for both of them. Is this still worth it or should I skip that?

Pics of the poo. Is it strange that I got excited seeing their poo this morning?! Haha. I was just worried about if they had parasites as well or not.

Pearscale

Fantail

As promised, videos! Well, video, because I can't get the other one to upload for now.

http://s113.beta.pho...G_1120.mp4.html

Edited November 26, 2012 by Vicky Chai Tea

[haley_tichonuk22 1,157]

I just wanted to say that when pearlscales have those blister looking fluid sacs, that means dropsy. Thats how you can tell on them

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

I just wanted to say that when pearlscales have those blister looking fluid sacs, that means dropsy. Thats how you can tell on them

Thank you. After someone pointed that out I figured.

[tithra 4,917]

Please do a 100% change for the fantail as well, he also is bloated. Both fish are going to get the same treatment (epsom and metromeds) at this point.

The epsom should be added to the tanks at a dosage of 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons. Just like with regular salt you'll put back in the amount of salt you take out with each water change

You can feed peas for now if you like, it certainly won't hurt.

Additionally, if you are able, I'd like you to do a big (50-80%) water change on both tanks daily in order to keep water conditions pristine while they are recovering. If you are unable to do daily changes do as many a week as you can. I know one tank is being run without a filter, would you be able to pick up a cheapy filter from walmart by chance? We can do this without a filter, but it would be nice to have some filtration in that tank if possible. If you cannot get a filter, daily water changes will be even more important for that tank.

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

I am willing to do as many water changes as it takes. @___@ I am a firm believer in keeping my water CLEAN and STABLE. 50% daily it is then.

I am totally able to get a new filter, it may take a few days though. At latest the end of the week, if all goes well.

Once again, thank you guys for your help.

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

I gave them peas today, they eagerly ate them up! I also got a new filter. Did a 90% WC on the tank without a filter before putting it in. Then I did an 80% on the other tank. Still gotta get epsom salt. No change in behavior or condition.

[tithra 4,917]

Thanks for the update try to get the Epsom as soon as you can. The other thing you could do until meds arrive is to get a little vial of powdered metro at your local fish store and actually feed them some of the powder.

[tithra 4,917]

how are things going? did the meds arrive?

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

Yes! I was very pleased with how fast they came. I began to record what I'm doing with the tanks. So far they're still sinking and bloated, though. Still haven't gotten any epsom salt, that's my bad.

Nov. 25- Recieved fish. Treated with aquarium salt. No food. Set up: Two 20gal tanks. Pearscale= heater and air stone. Fantail= filter (200GPH).

Nov. 26- 100% WC both tanks to remove aquarium salt. No food. Waste appears normal.

Nov. 27- 90% WC on pearlscale tank, added 100GPH filter. 80% WC on fantail tank. Pearscale= Heater, filter, air stone. Fantail= Filter. Fed defrosted frozen peas. Ate with enthusiasm.

Nov. 28- 60% WC on peascale tank. 50% WC on fantail tank. Fed pre-soaked sinking pellets. Ate with enthusiasm. Still sinking. Waiting on medicated food.

Nov. 29- Meto-Meds arrived. Fed normal pellets in a.m. Ate with enthusiasm. 50% WC both tanks. Condition unchanged.

Nov. 30- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, ate with enthisiasm. 80% WC on pearscale 50% on fantail.

Dec. 1- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, ate with enthusiasm. 50% WC both tanks. No change.

Dec. 2- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, are with enthusiasm. Water change to be done later today.

Pics:

[fantailfan1 26,742]

Do you know their weight? How many MMs pellets are they eating daily?

And may I ask--why the delay in getting Epsom salt? It is cheap and readily available.

Thanks for the update.

[Pearlscaleperfect 3,561]

Unfortunately the sinking is more than likely permanent. With MM you should be feeding them 1% of their weight daily, so its essential you know how much your fish weigh.

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

Do you know their weight? How many MMs pellets are they eating daily?

And may I ask--why the delay in getting Epsom salt? It is cheap and readily available.

Thanks for the update.

40 hour work week with no days off, double shifts (rather, working both jobs in one day), and relying on rides from my fiance. Just really busy. Still, I HAVE had the time I just haven't remembered when I was free.

Unfortunately the sinking is more than likely permanent. With MM you should be feeding them 1% of their weight daily, so its essential you know how much your fish weigh.

I was unaware of that... do you know how I can weigh them? I have a digital scale that goes up to... 5lbs I think?

[fantailfan1 26,742]

Understandable.

Put a container of tank water on your scale and hit the tare button (or record weight of water + container). Add fish (and subtract the weight of water + container from water + container + fish if your scale doesn't have a tare button). It's best to weigh them in grams if available.

[tithra 4,917]

let us know their weight once you get it and we can tell you how many pellets each you need to feed.

You will need to feed 1% of their body weight a day in pellets for at least 14 days (we can check back in at the 14 day mark to decide whether or not we should continue). Please do get the epsom as soon as you can.

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

Ok, can do tomorrow.

[tithra 4,917]

Any updates hun? Were you able to weigh them?

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

Ug. No salt or batteries yet. My fault. Hopefully tomorrow. They're not doing any better or worse as far as I can tell. Oh, the fantails sore on his side is actually better, now that I think about it. It's just a few missing scales now, healing nicely. It wasn't very serious to begin with though.

[Vicky Chai Tea 0]

Ok! Sorry for the lack of updates on the guys. Unfortunately, the news is not good. I've been tracking their progress daily, here is what I have since I left off earlier. Prepare for wall of text. TL;DR Mostly 50% water changes, some days I skipped water changes and did a 100% to try and make up for it the next day. The pearscale is slowly getting worse and the fantail has developed a small sore on his side, but it doesn't look too severe.. Both of them are still eating. Oh, and I finally got Epsom salt and I need a heater because the fantails tank is getting way too cold. The temps have stayed a very constant 75F and 60F until now.

Dec. 3- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, ate with enthusiasm. 50% WC both tanks. No change. Still have to weigh fish and get Epsom salt.

Dec. 4- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, ate with enthusiasm. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec.5- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, ate with enthusiasm. 50% WC pearscale, 70% fantail. Pearscale looks a little worse.

Dec. 6- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, ate with enthusiasm. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec. 7- Fed Metro-Meds in a.m, ate with enthusiasm. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec. 8- Stopped Metro Med treatment. Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec. 9- No WC. Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten.

Dec. 10- 100% WC both tanks. Started using Prime as water conditioner. Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten.

Dec. 11- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec 12- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC both tanks. Red spots appear on pearscale. Raised pearscale temperature from 70F to 75F. Fantail tank still 60F.

Dec. 13- No WC. Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. Red spots still apparent.

Dec 13- 100% WC both tanks. Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. Red spots worse.

Dec. 14- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec. 15- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec. 16- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec. 17- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC both tanks.

Dec. 18- Bought Epsom salt. Dosed both tanks. Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 50% WC.

Dec. 19- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. Pearscale looking worse. 100% WC both tanks. Dosed with Epsom salt.

Dec. 20- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. Red spots till on pearscale. No WC

Dec. 21- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. 100% WC both tanks. Dosed with Epsom salt.

Dec. 22- Fed presoaked pellets in am, all eaten. No WC. The fantail has developed a small sore on his side from laying on the same area for too long, I assume.

Dec 23- 100% WC both tanks. Pearscales bloating looks worse. Dosed with Epsom salt.

Dec. 24- Fed in am, no WC

Dec. 25- Fed in am, no WC

Dec. 26- 100% WC both tanks. Fed pearscale metro-meds+ fantail pellets. Pearscale still looking bad, if not worse. Dosed with Epsom salt. Unfortunately temp in fantails tank is 58F. Must buy heater.

Dec. 27- Fed presoaked pellets to fantail and metro meds to pearscale.

I do have photos, I'll upload them soon.

[tithra 4,917]

Okay thanks for checking back in and all the info.

Just so I understand: you stopped the metro meds on 12/8 correct? And they were started on 11/29 correct? If all this info is correct, please understand that whenever you feed this medicated food you need to feed them for a minimum of 2 weeks. At that point we would reassess to see if the meds need to be continued longer. Stopping antibiotics early is similar to what can happen if a person does not finish their round of antibiotics - you can get drug resistant pathogens or not fully kill what you are fighting and have a recurrence.

I see that you have started the metro meds again now. You should feed them consistently for 2 full weeks now. The fish should not be getting any other food but MMs during these 2 weeks.

The temperature in the tanks really needs to be addressed because the medicated food can cause constipation, and at such low temps the digestive tract does not work properly (under 60F and you should actually start reducing feedings, but if you are feeding a medicated food you cannot do this).

How many days have they been in epsom now?

I look forward to some pics that would be very helpful