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number20121

Pinecone galore

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I'm so sorry this is happening to you oerba, you have such lovely fish :(:bighug

Just reminding you to check your filters incase they sucked up any rusty sand too. I'm sure you've already done that but I just didn't want it to get overlooked.

Thanks dear :) I just cleaned the filters a week ago, but I will check again, just to make sure :)

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i stay away from PP all together.. but i do not know if that's better for plants than bleach as i only use bleach.. so that too is totally your call :heart

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i stay away from PP all together.. but i do not know if that's better for plants than bleach as i only use bleach.. so that too is totally your call :heart

Well, I'm not planning on using it on the fish, just to disinfect the tank and plants.

Maybe I should bleach though, but that will have to wait until tomorrow. I got like 3 cups of bleach at home, that is not going to be enough :lol

Wow, I just removed my TMS again last week, tired of it buggering up my ACs. Glad I did now! Scary!

Well, I wouldn't say TMS is scary in general or a cause of problems overall. :) I love it and in the tanks without issues, I will continue it for at least until I get tired of the black bottom :D

I have had problems (with rust and now health issues) only in one tank where there was obviously rust. I do not know if this small amount of rust is to blame or not, but I find it suspiciously coincidental.

I think somehow this is connected, but little Wakka is the one with the most problems. Poor baby :(

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Ok I'm totally out of the loop....but TMS is moon sand? And it rusted??? For some reason I was thinking you were talking about a filter part or something.

And I do agree with Helen that the rust may have led to problems, especially if as you say your fish was always a bit sickly/weaker than the others. I didn't think it would cause issues for an entire tank....but just how much was there?

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I will be trying to contact the people who make this substrate to see what they have to say about this.

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So did the sand itself rust, or do you think there were metal particles in the batch you had? Either way, that's pretty worrisome. If it was metal in the sand, it might be that it was mixed throughout and you just saw the rust where it was most concentrated.

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Chrissy,

The TMS is magnetic.

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Yup. TMS = Tahitian moon sand :P

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Ok, so it is moon sand?

From what Alex told me, TMS is magnetic and contains iron. I found a bunch of sand "granules" that had rusted a lot underneath the "normal" TMS and even left rust stains on the tank. I noticed this a while ago but due to Helen's horror experience from trying to clean it out, I procrastinated.

I cleaned it about a week ago, and a few days later the fish started to go nuts.

Kupo is now back in the main tank (scales flattened) but all of them are fed MMs since they were exposed to whatever infection Wakka had in that tank. I don't need others to start too, and seeing how nasty his issue seems to be, I rather not take a risk.

Kupo already swims a lot better, no bottom sitting. In fact, he acts 90% normal compared to 24 hours ago.

Tomorrow when I buy bleach I will remove the remaining TMS in this tank and clean the tank thoroughly.

Chibi is currently adjusting to warmer water and will join QT since he is still pineconed. I will use a divider though to prevent him from omming on Wakka's wound.

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Yes I'm reading about TMS now, so it's mainly obsidian but 30% of that can be 'other metals and minerals' (i.e. iron)?

I think taking it out completely is the way to go for sure, just to be safe if nothing else. It may not be directly responsible for the issues but even low level iron exposure can weaken a fish (Alex, or anyone else, you can find a fair amount of information on iron exposure in relation to brown trout...not carp but the effects would be similar on the gills, etc.).

Maybe the manufactures aren't aware and as we know all too well, fancy goldfish tend to be the most susceptible of many fish to water quality issues. Alex it will be interesting to hear what the manufactures have to say.

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Well, it's interesting, (and not to jinx myself and others), but there are 3 of us [Ashlee18, Kulukan, and myself] who have had TMS for a long time (among the longest here), and we have not have any issues like that at all.

I'm not saying this to dismiss things, but I also don't want to start mass panic. Again, I will repeat, this is more symptomatic of a mini epidemic of bacterial infections. Metro-meds cannot treat kidney disease that are non-infectious in origin. So, while the issue of TMS and rust etc warrant further attention, I also think we have enough evidence to say that there has to be something else in that tank. By focusing on the TMS only, I'm afraid we are not getting to the root of things.

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Never said it was definatly the cause, but always best to be cautious and eliminate all possible sources of trouble. And though I know many have used it with no issues, discussions like this are good to identify possible issues. Maybe it was a bad batch, maybe it wasn't the sand at all, but I think it was worth considering.

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Never said it was definatly the cause, but always best to be cautious and eliminate all possible sources of trouble. And though I know many have used it with no issues, discussions like this are good to identify possible issues. Maybe it was a bad batch, maybe it wasn't the sand at all, but I think it was worth considering.

Oh, absolutely. There is no question of that, and it has always been our policy to try to get to the root of things when there are problems. Otherwise, we are simply bandaging the wound for a later recurrence. There is no question that discussions like this are invaluable, and that's why I am happy to take part in the follow-up. However, I just thought it was also important to bring the issue of an infectious agent back into the discussion, because so far, we have quite a bit of evidence that would suggest that there is an infection at play here. So, we definitely cannot ignore that.

Certainly, taking out the sand will also remove a significant place where bacteria can colonize. :)

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Is it possible that there was a pocket of something "bad" in the substrate that got released when you removed the rusty portion of the sand?

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Gosh, what a mess. I'm so sorry Fang - I'll be thinking of you and hoping your babies pull through.

I was not aware that TMS was magnetic or that it had the potential to rust. Like Alex was saying, there have been plenty of members here that have had success with TMS, but it IS odd that a few have had issues with rust and their fish being exposed to any toxicity as a result. I would certainly investigate with the company as to what could lead to that. I know that at one point I almost went with TMS, but chose SuperNaturals substrates instead. Either way, I hope everything gets resolved for all fish involved. :)

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Well, it's interesting, (and not to jinx myself and others), but there are 3 of us [Ashlee18, Kulukan, and myself] who have had TMS for a long time (among the longest here), and we have not have any issues like that at all.

I'm not saying this to dismiss things, but I also don't want to start mass panic. Again, I will repeat, this is more symptomatic of a mini epidemic of bacterial infections. Metro-meds cannot treat kidney disease that are non-infectious in origin. So, while the issue of TMS and rust etc warrant further attention, I also think we have enough evidence to say that there has to be something else in that tank. By focusing on the TMS only, I'm afraid we are not getting to the root of things.

I agree! That is why I said a couple times that I like the TMS and will continue it in my other tanks unless there are problems showing, as well as that I think that this one bag I bought had a "bad mix" in it where way too much iron was concentrated in a little bit of salt.

I love this substrate, it looks great and stays so clean!

Is it possible that there was a pocket of something "bad" in the substrate that got released when you removed the rusty portion of the sand?

Nope. Because I am very paranoid of these bacterial pockets, the layer of sand in my tanks is so thin that you continuously see bare patches on the the bottom because the fish move it around so much. I'd say it's about... 1/2" at the thickest if fish manage to pile it up more in certain areas :) I don't even have enough sand in there to cover the entire bottom, unless it is an even 2mm thick layer - but that's not happening with goldfish in the same tank :lol

Except for in my planted betta tank, but it has plants and trumpet snails that take care of the sand.

Edited by Oerba Yun Fang

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Oh yeah, I wanted to update too.

Wakka really surprises me. He obviously is not feeling well, but he still eats and is somewhat active. His belly grosses me out a bit. It feels very soft in the area from the pelvic fins back to the vent. But he got all excited seeing me this morning. If it wasn't for the very obvious issues, he would look like he always did. Cute, derpy and clumsy.

Chibi almost worries me a bit more, he does not seem too interested in food. It took him 45 minutes to show interest in the MMs that I dropped in on his side, and even then he ate only 2 pellets (while Wakka snorted up all 5 I gave him within 8 1/2 seconds). He just hovers in his spot near the filter. No clamped fins though, pinecone level the same as yesterday.

Occasionally he swims around and rediscovers the plant and the divider, but other than that he is quite inactive.

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just stopping by to see how your fin babies are feeling today ?

Pretty much the same as this morning, except that Chibi is eating again. No new sickies, everyone is eating. Wakka is having a ball with the floating anubias on his side of the QT tank :doh11:

It's like he doesn't even know that he is sick/hurt. :rolleyes:

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It is great that Chibi is eating again--good sign! You are doing all you can, and everyone has fingers crossed for your guys. Are they on MMs now?

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It is great that Chibi is eating again--good sign! You are doing all you can, and everyone has fingers crossed for your guys. Are they on MMs now?

Yep, thanks to the one Jess sent me. The ones I ordered at GFC last Saturday didn't come today either. Now I am glad she mis-read what I said and sent me 40 grams of MMs instead of just a little bit for a 40gram fish - considered I am feeding MMs to more than one fish now :lol

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Still the same as yesterday. Chibi is eating (or trying, he has a hard time finding these pellets even in a divided 10g with nothing but one rock with an anubias (and some floating anubias) in it :doh11:

He seems to have some floating problem this morning though, but also appears 50% less pineconed than yesterday.

Wakka still has not gotten the news that he is pineconing, mushy bellied and has a wound on his side the size of my pinky finger nail. He stopped losing so much slimecoat or whatever it was (I had to clean the tank twice daily because he produced so much "stuff" that it clouded the water up quickly and made the ammonia sky rocket.

The wound looks clean and not infected. No fuzz growing or similar. The remaining blood spots under his skin (looking like bruises) are slowly fading too.

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Hope things continue to improve, Fang. Positive vibes. :)

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happy to hear they are not getting any worse :) hopefully the pine coning will go away and their apatite will get better :)

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