Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
number20121

Pinecone galore

Recommended Posts

Is it time to freak out? Info is for Main Tank / QT

  • * Ammonia Level (tank): 0 / 0
  • * Nitrite Level (tank) 0 / 0
  • * Nitrate level (Tank) <5 / 0
  • * Ammonia Level (Tap): 0
  • * Nitrite Level (Tap) 0
  • * Nitrate level (Tap) 0
  • * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.6 / 7.7
  • * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.5
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? api drops
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 whisper ex 70 total 680gph / top fin 20 100gph
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime (crushed coral in filter)
  • * Water temperature? 74 / 81
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 2x weekly 80% / daily 100%
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 3 days ago 80% / yesterday 100%
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55g running for 3 years / QT for 3 days with cycled media
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 5 fish between 2 and 5" length / QT now 2 fish of 2.5-3"
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Gel food, veggies, frozen
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? nope
  • * Any medications added to the tank? nope / QT has metronidazole powder and 1/8tsp epsom per 10g
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) Wakka has had pineconed first a bit over half a year ago
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Wakka pineconed, dropsy, red spots and slightly soft belly / Kupo & Chibi slight pineconing
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Wakka and Chibi generally prone to buoyancy issues. More of these the last few days and bottom sitting in Wakka & Kupo
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. (Like I remember) all of them have been treated with salt and prazi a couple times in their lives. Wakka was treated for pineconing with MMs for... 2 weeks? (Whatever was recommended to me back then, I really don't remember)
  • * You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

Photos/videos later today, I have to leave for work in 30 minutes D:

Anyway, last night I noticed Kupo being slightly pineconed as well, and this morning now Chibi too. Kupo's went pretty much down though, added him to Wakka's QT (I need to get a larger QT container though now).

Wakka is still pineconing and now seems swollen too. He also feels softer, I am not sure if that is the drops or if his belly is getting mushy. He has a few small red patches (bloody looking) under his skin, especially around the belly area. Some redness on a fin too.

Kupo and Chibi both show/ed only slight pineconing. More like a prickly look. Kupo has pretty much flattened again (I guess getting MMs as soon as I saw this really helped) and Chibi looks like Kupo did last night, slightly prickly. I currently have him in a colander in the 55g because I don't want to stuff 3 fish in the QT, plus I have no time to slowly move him from 74F to 81F water. But since he gets pushed around by the current I don't want him to get worn out and stuck to the filter.

All of them eat their MMs, but Wakka is having a harder time staying upright than usual.

The thing that I wonder about is if it was the darn rusting TMS which I finally removed a week ago (only the rusty part). I had the fish removed during that and scrubbed as much rust off the bottom glass as I could (still traces on there) and then filled-drained the tank a couple times before adding the fish back. But now three of them have developed pineconing and this reminds me of what Helen went through with the rusty UV filter a while back :(

The filters are clean, no excess gunk. Plants were bleached before added to the tank.

Edited by Oerba Yun Fang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun, i am so sorry.. there is nothing more stressful than having an entire community sick, you know i've been there. unless something has changed within the past few months ie, new fish, new plants that may have introduced parasites.. i would think it's the rust.

what you are describing is too similar to what happened with my fish and the UV Saga about a year an a half ago.. basically, they were poisoned by rust.. gradually.

hoping others will chime in with other possible causes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But now three of them have developed pineconing and this reminds me of what Helen went through with the rusty UV filter a while back :(

:( :(

don't dispair hun.. even though they suffered the rust poison, amico was the only one i lost because she was really stunted and eggbound (i didn't know until post mortem). sir loyn was a constant floater from day one.. had one bout of pineconing before i realized what was happening and then reacted again when the rest of them did.

the moors and rocky, are all still well. all i did was treat them with Metronidazole. 400mg in the water for every 10 gallons for 14 days. they all came good again :) naturally, daily water changes.

had it not been for the flukes from Japan, i'd still have the rest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Helen :)

But no, no new fish added, all plants have been disinfected, no new equipment or anything. And it's only the one tank that had/s the rust(stains) in. I am keeping a very close eye on Vanille and Hugo now too. Well, on all of them, just because I am paranoid now.

Oh and I am not sure if I remember this right or not, but I feel like in the back of my head I remember something about NO epsom when there are these bloody spots on fish?

Unlike the first patch on his belly that looked superficial, the new ones are beneath the scales.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no, i don't think Epsom would bother that at all. are the fish swelling? they don't usually do not swell when there is a reaction to something like rust. yes, they will pinecone, but i believe swelling is not usually noticed.

we're going to need to view pics and a vid later when you get a chance to upload them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wakka seems slightly swollen to me, but he's my problem baby. As said, over half a year or so ago he already pineconed for some unknown reason. But he is so weirdly built, so ultra round and short and always had these buoyancy issues that even cause him to flip over sometimes. I wonder if he is double affected by that and the rust. The other two seem to be in much better condition, no blood spots or anything.

Off to work I go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

blood spots mean infection. he needs to be treated for that. are the blood spots coming from within or do they appear like he's grazed himself onto something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh No Fang :( I have no advise to offer only my thoughts and prayers you caught this early enough to avoid further complications ;)

I will be keeping you all in my thoughts today ;) speedy recovery :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sorry to hear this, Fang-- very scary. I wonder if you want to separate Wakka from the others, not only so you can treat him, but to minimize any additional infection risk to the others. I sure hope this resolves soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:no: Oh no! I'm sorry you are having issues Fang, hope you can get to the bottom of it. Wishing your fish feel better soon! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh no Fang................... :no:

Hope they get well soon,................................ :bye2:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm so sorry this is happening, Fang. Given that more than one is having the issue at the same, I am much more inclined to think that this is a bacterial issue, and a particularly infectious one. Although this might be a bit drastic, it may be necessary to go ahead and treat the entire tank when you MMs arrive. :(

I understand your concerns about the rust, but I've combed the literature for any hint of problems because of this, and I have not really found anything. Moreover, if the fish are somehow poisoned by rust, there is no way you would be able to save them with antibiotics, because then it's not a bacterial issue. If anything, MMs in this situation might actually make things worse by placing an even bigger toll on the damaged kidneys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you are able to solve this soon and your fishies will feel better :heart

Edited by sarajo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm inclined to think it's bacterial as well, it would be a really high amount of rust to harm fish I would think. Especially when water conditioners remove/neutralize heavy metals, I would think iron would fall in that category but I'm honestly not sure how that entire thing works really :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone :)

Helen, I agree about the infection. I just came home from work and Wakka looks worse, while everyone else looks better. The pineconing is especially prominent on his left side, towards the end.

Where he had a larger blood spot this morning in that area is now a ... I don't know how to describe. "flat hole"? It's like an indentation and it looks like the slime coat and scales are missing, exposing a small 5x5mm patch of skin or flesh, whichever it scientifically is. The bloodspot itself is mostly gone. He lost a lot of slime coat and the tank was cloudy. I did a 50% w/c this morning and had 0 ammonia, and within 13 hours it rose to somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1ppm (closer to the latter) even with filtration!! :yikes

The water was cloudy too, BUT I found some uneaten MMs. I had Steven feed them MMs while I was at work, and he probably gave them too much, which added to the water issue.

His belly IS soft. So soft, it wobbles when he swims :( :( :(

But he is a happy camper and flips out the very second that food enters the tank and aims straight for it, so I'll see how it goes.

Here a short video of him and Wakka while I drain their QT. You can see the wound on Wakka, and also see how Kupo is perfectly flat again. Chibi is still in the breeder box in the main tank but not quite as prickly anymore as this morning.

I hope the little fella pulls through. So far he's fighting. He is not clamping either, just bottom sitting, except for at feeding time where he acts like it's his Birthday, Christmas and New Years all in one.

You can see the wound between the base of his pelvic and caudal fins. The blood spot that was initially on his belly (where I'd say "chest" if it was not a fish) is fully gone.

EDIT:

Alex, I'll just start them all on MMs then. I might add Wakka back to the main tank then if he does alright with the filter current, same with Chibi, and treat them all with MMs. The ones I order should be here soon hopefully, I ordered them last Saturday. They didn't come today, so hopefully tomorrow.

Edited by Oerba Yun Fang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes heavy metals do cause harm and can be lethal. They first coat the gills (bond to them) then enter the blood and eventually do organ damage, mainly to the kidney. Iron's not as bad as some, but it will have an impact and can do serious harm. However I don't think the small amount of rust you found would have done this, whereas in Helen's case the fish had chronic exposure. I'm more inclined to think this is bacterial as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes heavy metals do cause harm and can be lethal. They first coat the gills (bond to them) then enter the blood and eventually do organ damage, mainly to the kidney. Iron's not as bad as some, but it will have an impact and can do serious harm. However I don't think the small amount of rust you found would have done this, whereas in Helen's case the fish had chronic exposure. I'm more inclined to think this is bacterial as well.

That is what I didn't get either (although I could only think of rust as explanation) because it still was only a small amount. What got me is that it all started a few days after I "stirred it up" by trying to clean out as much of it as possible.

I do agree that especially in Wakka's case it seems bacterial. The two teles do considerably fine, and different from him - no blood spots, no mushy belly, no flipping.

Eeeeek I wonder if the wound comes from Kupo. I just saw him picking at Wakka's blood spots. Maybe it was just coincidence, but it kinda looked like it D:

I'm going to rename Kupo to Hannibal Lecter. D:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok, Fang, i stood back from your last post where you found rust in your tank and refrained from posting my thoughts.

i really thing the TMS needs to go. for whatever reason it is rusting up in your tank, it is. it does not matter that others aren't experiencing the same, there may be something different in the water you have there causing the TMS to rust up that others don't have. and for those saying that Prime binds the toxicity from chemicals so there shouldn't be a problem, well, here we have a very dedicated member with a flawless routine first finding rust in her tank and a month later a community reacting to an infection. so, cann that thought because for whatever reason, the Prime is not binding what is causing this.

i believe that the infection IS coming as a result to the poisoning. there is only so much a body can process, and, with the minimal organs that a fish has that really only offers basic function, we need to act before whatever the problem is causes more complications.

fang, hun, i think the TMS needs to go. i think a good plan would be to increase aeration, up the water changes and add the Metronidazole into the water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Helen! I am planning on losing the TMS in this tank. I think the bag I used for that particular tank was a "bad batch". I have no problems in any of my other TMS tanks, rust only developed in the main tank. I think there is a bacterial infection affecting Wakka, which was brought out more maybe by the rust issue.

He has always been "the weakest link". I mean, just look at his head / body proportions here. He is so short and round, it's ridiculous, especially compared to all the other fish that live in the same tank.

He always tended to have buoyancy issues, and remember on FB we talked about him flipping upside down without floating, but seeming perfectly fine other than that?

I think all this plays in. That's probably why only he had pineconed ever before. Never had a pineconer in these 3 1/2 years I keep goldfish, until he started this, and now it's his second time.

That said, anything else about the treatment? I removed the rusting part of the TMS and have not seen anything else. It all had concentrated in one 4x4" section that had some rust in it. This is what I removed the other day with all the goldfish in a tub for the time being. I'll check again though and if I see any new spots, I'll remove the entire TMS tonight.

What do to about the wound? Continue epsom? I have triple antibiotic ointment on hand, but I am not sure if that is a good idea on his wound?

Edited by Oerba Yun Fang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i support the TMS removal totally.

the only thing i did with my guys is strip the entire tank down (without losing cycle) ie, kept filters maintained. i had the 66 gallon then, but still maintained a 2 filter system, so i also threw out the media in the one filter. i got rid of as much of anything that could be causing bad to the community without compromising the cycle.

treatment? all i did was increase aeration and add Metronidazole to the water. daily 80% WC's and did that for 14 consecutive days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as you will be doing the daily water changes,i don't think the wound needs further attention. it does not look open to me, just some scales missing. please do not add aquarium salt to the routine, it might make matters worse with the raised scales.

if there is swelling, then use Epsom. if there is no swelling, i would advise against the Epsom, that's your call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I just removed my TMS again last week, tired of it buggering up my ACs. Glad I did now! Scary!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as you will be doing the daily water changes,i don't think the wound needs further attention. it does not look open to me, just some scales missing. please do not add aquarium salt to the routine, it might make matters worse with the raised scales.

if there is swelling, then use Epsom. if there is no swelling, i would advise against the Epsom, that's your call.

Oh lord no, salt was no option for me anyway with the pineconing. I'll give this tank a good cleaning and sterilizing of as much as possible. Gotta get some bleach at the store though, or maybe I'll do a PP. Might be less harmful to the plants? I'd hate to lose my nice algae wall (the fish love feeding on it) but if that's what it takes - oh well.

My main issue right now? I am running out of power plugs. I already unplugged both lights on the tropical community tank and am running a 100watt desk lamp instead to keep the plants in there alive :lol

I think I need to go get a power strip tomorrow at the store too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm so sorry this is happening to you oerba, you have such lovely fish :(:bighug

Just reminding you to check your filters incase they sucked up any rusty sand too. I'm sure you've already done that but I just didn't want it to get overlooked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
  • Create New...