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Help, my aronda is staying on the bottom motionless


kiwiranger

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Other Required Info:


  • Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level (tank):0-0.5
  • * Nitrite Level (tank):5-10
  • * Nitrate level (Tank):20
  • * Ammonia Level (Tap):0
  • * Nitrite Level (Tap):0
  • * Nitrate level (Tap):0
  • * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines):7, KH: 40, GH:120
  • * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines):7, KH:0, GH:0
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?API 5 in 1 test strip
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aheim 2231 canister and Sunsun 303B
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Masterpet water ager, Saachem Prime and Nutrafin Cycle, tonic salt
  • * Water temperature? around 14C
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? once a week 50%

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? yesterday
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?45 gals, 1 month
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 4, 2 around 10cm and another 2 around 15cm
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? yes
  • * Any medications added to the tank? no
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) never
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?no
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?staying at the bottom and not eating
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. salt 8 tbsp, prime 25ml, nutrafin cycle 25ml
  • * You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

Hi all

I am just wondering if somebody can help me.

Yesterday after worked, I notice my yellow oranda was staying at the bottom motionless, the other were fine (there are 4 orandas in my fish tank)

I checked the water quality, I was so suprised the test was showing Nitrite of 10. The last time I checked it was 0.5

I quickly did 80% water change and added 8 tbspn.

This morning, I checked the water and the result was the same (still showing nitrite 5-10).

I went to pet store and brought Saachem prime and Nutrafin Cycle (I used Nutrafin cycle when I started the fish tank), I added 25ml prime and 25ml cycle.

I moved my yellow oranda to other fish tank (smaller only 10 gals, I have not used and emptied the water for a month), before I moved the fish I checked the water of the small fish tank and it was showing amonia 0 nitrite 0 and nitrate 0.

I added 2 tbsp salt.

The fish is still staying at the bottom motionless and does not want to eat anything.

Now, I am worried.

I just added UV light into my sunsun canister filter (second hand and the UV light was broken when I got it), could it be the trigger why the nitrite jumped from 0.5 to 10?

1. What else that I can do to help my yellow oranda?

2. Do I need to move my other 3 orandas? (but the other fish tank only 10 gals)

3.Should I do another water change or wait until the prime and cycling doing their job?

Thank you in advance.

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Hello Kiwiranger,

These are my initial thoughts. It would appear to me that your tank has not completely cycled yet and yes another large water change is highly recommended. Also, your tank is a bit too small for your 4 gold fish. For now though, the best thing to do I think is large daily water changes.

Good move on the transfer, you'll want to do daily changes there too while she recovers. I'll let the more experienced folks weigh in here and give their advice. But that is where I would start immediately. Good luck. We'll help you through this.

Edited by MexiMike83
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Nitrites at that level are toxic. I would do another 80-90% water change then retest the parameters. Do another water change according to those results. I get a little nervous ant time nitrites are above 0.50. Also I recommend drop test kits as they are more accurate than strips.

Hopefully a moderator will come along and answer more of your questions but I would do a water change or two while waiting for an answer.

Good luck. :)

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could you please post a video of your oranda?

- how do his gills look? (red, purple, pale etc.)

- is he trying to eat but spitting it out or is he not trying to eat at all?

A couple things:

- Because your tank is not cycled (or is going through a 'bump') you will need to do extra water changes. I would suggest testing the water daily and changing it accordingly. Ammonia should not get above .5 and nitrite should not get above .25

- The nitrite levels right now are dangerously high. Please do a big water change (two back to back changes if you need to) to get the nitrite back to 0 ppm.

- Is there any way you could pick up a drop test kit like the API master test kit? Strips are unfortunately notoriously inaccurate, and a drop test kit is actually cheaper in the long run.

- stop using the UV for now. A UV is not recommended while you are cycling. It is possible that your cycle may have been a bit unstable to start with and the UV has affected it.

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To answer your questions:

1. lets start with clean water for your oranda for right now. I would do daily water changes in the QT to start.

2. You do not need to move the other fish, but you do need to test the water daily and do water changes as necessary to keep those parameters within a safe range.

3. Definitely do a water change. The prime will help in between your water changes, but is not a substitute for a water change. And while Cycle may help, it is not instant and definitely not guaranteed to work. Let's hope this is just a small bump and your cycle recovers within the next week :)

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Is it good/necessary to use salt with parameters like this? I know it helps with some part of the cycling process (making something less harmful) but at some point doesn't salt make things worse? Or did I dream that? I do need to get to bed!

Sorry to interject my own question but if the salt isn't needed or is harmful, it needs to go. :)

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Is it good/necessary to use salt with parameters like this? I know it helps with some part of the cycling process (making something less harmful) but at some point doesn't salt make things worse? Or did I dream that? I do need to get to bed!

Sorry to interject my own question but if the salt isn't needed or is harmful, it needs to go. :)

It's not necessarily necessary, but a tonic dose of salt can help when you have nitrites in the tank (it makes the nitrites less harmful). We typically don't recommend use of salt when there is the potential for ammonia levels to rise in the tank because the combo of salt and ammonia (both caustic substances) can be cause increased gill/skin irritation.

I think the salt you have in there now is OK, you just want to keep a close watch on those parameters and do the necessary water changes to keep them safe.

The other thing I wanted to ask that I forgot is if one of the additives you listed is a buffer? Your kh is still quite low in the tank, and given that your Ph is borderline, this concerns me a bit. I would suggest trying to get that kh up to 80-100 at minimum to make sure your Ph is stable :)

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Salt is helpful to combat nitrite poisoning, not sure about the dosage though. Salt prevents methemoglobin from building up. Methemoglobin is what turns the blood brown aka brown blood disease (blood is unable to carry oxygen).

Edit: I type too slow. What Tithra says.... :clapping:

Edited by Isabella
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Is it good/necessary to use salt with parameters like this? I know it helps with some part of the cycling process (making something less harmful) but at some point doesn't salt make things worse? Or did I dream that? I do need to get to bed!

Sorry to interject my own question but if the salt isn't needed or is harmful, it needs to go. :)

You could use salt with these water readings but with large daily water readings he would be going through a lot of salt, so I think large daily water changes with prime will be just fine. It is with high ammonia you don't want to use salt, but with high nitrite salt can help prevent brown blood and help oxygen get in the body ;)

sniped.... man I must be tired :rofl

Edited by MissColonel
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:rofl

Welcome back, Jess! We've missed you! :)

I'm glad to see members helping here! :thumbs:

Anyway, here's a recent article I wrote on nitrite toxicity and salt. As low as 0.1ppm of nitrite is toxic.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/page/index.html/_/disease-information/nitrite-poisoning-treatment-r332

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First of all..Thank you guys for the help

I have done 80% water change, but the nitrite is still high (10), nitrate 0 or 20 (is not clear) and ammonia 0-0.5

I do not understand why the nitrite is not going down with 80% water change.

I do not have drop test at the moment, but I will buy it tomorrow.

The other thing I wanted to ask that I forgot is if one of the additives you listed is a buffer? Your kh is still quite low in the tank, and given that your Ph is borderline, this concerns me a bit. I would suggest trying to get that kh up to 80-100 at minimum to make sure your Ph is stable :)

So sorry, but I do not understand what a buffer is and how do I get kh up?

I put 25ml prime in the fish tank (after the reading) and I did not put cycle or salt anymore.

The other 3 orandas inside the tank are still active and have good appetite

I do not have video camera, but here is the picture of my yellow oranda

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p488/kiwiranger/f6261cfa.jpg

His gills look normal, he starts moving a little bit (he looks like tired or does not have energy) and eat peas that I gave him (what a relief). Previously, he did not touch the food that I gave him - just sit there motionless.

Anyway, here's a recent article I wrote on nitrite toxicity and salt. As low as 0.1ppm of nitrite is toxic.

http://www.kokosgold...-treatment-r332

I put tonic salt in my fish tank, after I read the article...

Thank you so much for all the advise and help.

I will update you again tomorrow.

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Note before reading further, please wait for more advisement from our moderators before trying anything that I'm about to tell you. Until then, I wanted to clear up something for you. Basically Kh (carbonate hardness) refers to how well the water's ph can resist change when introduced to an acid aka a buffer, or a cushion if you will. I think Tithra is concerned about a possible ph crash (the water becoming too acidic).

Ways to increase kH (Carbonate Hardness):

Adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). Don't do this unless a moderator instructs you how to do so.

Adding an air stone to increase surface turbulence driving off carbon dioxide (CO2) I would do this.

Adding commercially available products to increase buffering capacity, like crushed coral for example. I've never worked with the stuff so I have no clue as to how to advise you on this.

So there you go, a little bit of chemistry for you - I'm still learning myself. We're all rooting for ya. Good luck!

Source: http://www.chelonia.org/articles/waterchemistry.htm

Edited by MexiMike83
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Yes, as Mike said, the kh is a measure of your water's carbonate content, which helps to keep your Ph stable. A kh of 100 or above is preferable, and Ph above 7.0 is preferable. Because your kh is low and your Ph is borderline acceptable, I worry about a Ph drop in the tank, which can be stressful if not fatal for your fish.

Crushed coral is one option, however since your Ph is borderline, I would personally go with a commercial buffer which will both raise the kh and probably raise your Ph up a little. Good buffers include Seachem Gold Buffer or API Proper Ph (both can be found in stores) or you can order Buff it up online from goldfishconnection.com (another very good buffer). Each time you change your water you add the buffer to your tank :)

If you would like you can add baking soda to the tank temporarily as Mike suggested to raise your kh until you are able to buy a buffer. Add 1 tsp and check Ph/kh in 10-15 min, if kh is still really low, add another tsp and check again etc. The baking soda is only a temporary measure, it's generally not the best way to buffer the water.

You should have an airstone in the tank if you don't already. An airstone can raise Ph is there is Co2 put in the water (some water companies add gasses to the water which will give you a low tap Ph, but a higher tank Ph once the gasses have dissipated), I don't see this being the issue with your water though given your tap and tank are the same :) but an airstone is always a good thing ;)

Can you answer if he is trying to eat and spitting out food or if he is not eating at all? How is he today after the water change?

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As far as the nitrites still being so high and you're getting nitrites of 0 out of your tap . . . I wonder how accurate your test strips are?

Edit: sorry just reread the post and realized you said you will try and get drop test kit. Ooops. :)

Edited by fantailfan1
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Note before reading further, please wait for more advisement from our moderators before trying anything that I'm about to tell you. Until then, I wanted to clear up something for you. Basically Kh (carbonate hardness) refers to how well the water's ph can resist change when introduced to an acid aka a buffer, or a cushion if you will. I think Tithra is concerned about a possible ph crash (the water becoming too acidic).

I have Seachem Neutral Regulator adjust ph7 from previous owner of the fish tank, can I use this?

You should have an airstone in the tank if you don't already. An airstone can raise Ph is there is Co2 put in the water (some water companies add gasses to the water which will give you a low tap Ph, but a higher tank Ph once the gasses have dissipated), I don't see this being the issue with your water though given your tap and tank are the same :) but an airstone is always a good thing ;)

Can you answer if he is trying to eat and spitting out food or if he is not eating at all? How is he today after the water change?

I do have air stone and air bar (with led light), please see my picture below:

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p488/kiwiranger/4f5d4824.jpg

My yellow oranda is fine now, he starts eating and moving ( previously he did not move and did not touch the food that I gave him.

As far as the nitrites still being so high and you're getting nitrites of 0 out of your tap . . . I wonder how accurate your test strips are?

I trust the test strip as when I did water change and before I turn on my canister filters the water is showing nitrites 0, but after I turned on the filters and wait for an hour the water is showing nitrites 10.

If the nitrites are reading high still, you need to do more WCs to get it down to zero. We usually recommend doing two back to back 90% WCs.

I did 90% water change back to back and now the nitrites are going down to 0.5-1

Please see picture below showing before and after water change.

http://i1152.photobu...er/32da8a26.jpg

I suspect, the high nitrite is from my filters or gravels. Do I need to clean my filter or remove the gravels? but I do not want to disturb the cycling process.

From the article that I read, 0 ammonia and high nitrites are indicators that my fish tank is in final phase of the cycling process.

I hope it is correct.

Edited by kiwiranger
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I am not super familiar with the neutral regulator. You can try it, what you want to do is add it to the tank, wait 30 min or so, then check your kh. When you have very low kh you sometimes have to use more than the recommended amount of a buffer. You want to aim for a minimum kh of 100. Let me know how it goes if you decide to try it :)

I am glad your oranda is back to normal! :) The high nitrites can really affect a fish. Be vigilant about testing your water and doing water changes :)

I'd like you to do another water change. .5-1 is still not ideal and can affect your fish.

Do you use a gravel vac on your gravel? How often do you clean your filters and how do you clean them?

0 ammonia and high nitrites is definitely a normal part of the cycling process and is the final phase :) But it can take awhile to get through it in some tanks, it just depends.

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I have added neutral regulator, but the kh is still showing under 100 (maybe around 80).

Since my yellow oranda is looking healthy now, should I put him back to the big fish tank?

I did another 80% water change and the nitrite down to 0.5.

I do use gravel vac to clean my gravel. I have not cleaned my filters yet as I do not want to disturb the cycling process.

Thanks

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80 is pretty darn good :) that should be enough to make sure Ph is stable. What is your tank Ph at after adding the neutral regulator?

You can go ahead and put him back in the main tank. I believe this behavior was due to the nitrites and not an illness that he needs to be QT'd for... some fish are just more sensitive to toxins in the water than others.

If you want to go bare bottom you can do so by slowly removing a little gravel every week, doing it this way will have the least affect on your cycle, but it is up to you. As long as your gravel is about 1/4 an inch (no deeper) and you clean it regularly it shouldn't be an issue. In terms of the filters, go ahead and take a look at the media. If it looks really gunked up with solid waste you may want to give it a quick rinse in some tank water, otherwise I would leave it alone until your cycle stabilizes. Once you have a stable cycle, aim to rinse it about monthly :)

Keep up on the water changes and let us know if anything changes :)

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Hi Tithra, I still cannot make the nitrite zero, eventhough I am doing 50% wc everyday. The fish are healthy now, but i do not know how much longer that i can do daily wc. Sometimes I wonder if I own the fish or the fish who own me ;)

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I am doing WC at the moment as the reading is worrying me (I did'nt do yesterday as I came home from work very late)

Ammonia: 0.5

PH:6.6

Nitrite:5

Nitrate:40

I did put some tonic salt, but I ran out salt already.

i will buy in the next few day.

I added prime everytime I do WC.

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