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Head standing Oranda


Mark_C

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Hi all,

One of our Orandas has been behaving oddly for a while, it started after the last water change in his tank.

For a few months he has been a bit of a bottom sitter, until its feeding time, and he seems to hate the cold, none of his tank mates seem to have any problems.

However afte a water change last Tuesday, he kind of rolled over and played dead, the water was a bit cold, and the water change had dropped it by a couple of degrees, so we took the emergency step of moving him into another tank upstairs which is always a bit warmer, this perked him up a little, then he started head standing and looking very weak.

However when food is offered he swims the right way up and gets it without too much trouble, but we have noticed he is not using his tail much when he swims.

We decided to treat the tank with Maracyn 2 to see if it helped at all, and fed him peas, followed by some fasting, now he is going through stages of swimming the right way up, then head standing and sometime rolling over almost on to his back, when he does this he looks awful, like he is very sick, but then he will suddenly right himself and be fine again for a while, almost like he was falling asleep.

I have seen him poop, and it seemed quite normal.

When he is head standing, or almost upside down, he still continues to forage at the gravel, so his appetite seems OK

I am at a bit of a loss as to what is wrong with him, someone suggested that they sometimes do this if they have a large wen, as the weight keeps them off balance, others suggested he(she) may be egg bound.

I will post some water Params later, but this is something I never normally have an issue with as I test and change regularly, they have just had a change a few hours ago as it was the end of the course of Maracyn 2

Any suggestions are very welcome

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Hello Mark,

I'm sorry your fish is having some issues, and we hope to be able to help. Toward that goal, could you please answer these questions below? Thank you!


    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level
  • * Nitrite Level
  • * Nitrate level
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
  • * Water temperature?
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
  • * How often do you change the water and how much?
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.)
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

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* Ammonia Level 0.50. This is normally 0. Possibly a result of the maracyn 2???

* Nitrite Level 0 ppm

* Nitrate level 10ppm

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.6 -6.8

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)6.6-6.8

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops

* Water temperature? 20c in old tank 22c in current tank

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? Current tank is 35 litre. Running for 18 months

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

* How often do you change the water and how much? 75% weekly

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

* How many fish in the tank and their size?

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime

* What do you feed your fish and how often? Various granules, pellets, peas and veggie gel food. Usually once a day off, with occasional fasting days

* Any new fish added to the tank? Yes girlfriend added one small ranchu 2 weeks ago in his normal tank, but he is now in the small nursery tank with young oranda and my baby comet/common cross, they are very healthy and growing well, and have a had a double treatment of Prazi recently when they were put in this tank together

The tank is a little over stocked, but we don't have a lot of options for the short term as we are currently setting up a 300litre for all the Orandas, but still waiting for all the parts I need. His usual tank is a 75 litre thathe shares with 2 other Orandas and now the small Ranchu, but the sulking in the cold started when he was moved there with his lifelong tankmate from a smaller tank

* Any medications added to the tank? Just completed maracyn 2

* List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) none, except bottom sitting in cold

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Yes prazi and salt for 1 week, followed by salt for 2 more weeks

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? None

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Started sitting at the bottom and hiding when cold, or not fed, always gets lively when food appears known he is affectionately as Gavin the sulker

He is generally the most timid of the fish in the tank and has a tendency to hide or sulk for a while if anything changes, e.g new tank mate, or new ornament, but has always come out of his shell shortly afterwards

We are currently heating the water to around 24 degrees, as he always seems happier at the higher temperature

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May we have a picture or a video of him as well, since you indicate that he has a rather large wen? Thank you :)

Sometimes orandas with overly large wen will be less active, hang nose down, etc because of their wen. However, the rolling over is a bit strange. Combined with the head tilting and the inability to regulate his balance (rolling over), it may be that he is having some sort of internal infection.

It's a very good possibility that the Maracyn 2 has killed your cycle, or caused a bump. It will be a great idea to monitor these parameters closely for the next week or two.

The only other thing I noticed is that your pH is a bit on the low side. (It's perfect for Maracyn 2 treatment, btw.) Do you know what the kH (carbonate hardness) of the water is? I'm asking because if this is low, you will want to buffer the water to prevent possible pH crashes.

Are you in Queensland? I'm going to call the attention of another moderator on the forum who is also in Australia. We may need her help on something.

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Hi Alex,

I will retest the PH tomorrow, as that is lower than previous tests, although I don't test ph as often as I do ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites, as previously I have never seen any change.

I will try to get a picture or video of him head standing tomorrow and post it up, it may have to wait till after work though depending what he is doing in the morning

He does look a little happier as the temperature is rising

Thanks for the help and advice as always :)

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Glad to hear he's perking up a bit. Usually, for fancy goldfish, we strive to keep their pH around 7.4 (high is OK also, if there is absolutely no ammonia), and around 72-76 degrees Fahrenheit. This is considered optimal for them.

Helen told me she sent you a care package before, which I've forgotten about, so that will come in very handy should we need it. Also, how did you get Maracyn 2? Inquiring minds want to know :rofl

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Ok got in from work, he seems a little happier at 24 degrees, but is still head standing and occasionally somersaulting, then going back to normal.

Gave him some food (tropical granules as they sink to mid tank quickly) and he gobbled them up, his appetite is certainly ok.

I will do a water test as that ammonia was a little worrying, and do a change if needed, it's a pain when I have to heat the water, but luckily this tank is fairly small :)

Btw

The Maracyn was courtesy of EBay USA

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Just wondering, is it worth repeating the Maracyn 2 treatment?

It said on the packet that a second course may be needed.

Unfortunately the leftover metro I had from Helen, has disappeared, I have turned the house upside down looking for it, with no luck :(

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Did a water test

Ammonia 0.25-0.50

Ph was 6.6

Checked the tap water, oh was 7.0. This is more like what I usually see

Did a temperature balanced 30% water change

He sulked a little, then did a couple of head stands and is now the right way up again, after a good investigation of the gravel looking for any food.

He seems to have made some improvement through the week, but no major changes.

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What does his poop look like? See if you could locate the metronidazole because I would really like to make a metro-gel to feed him. I suspect that there some internal infection, and while we could make food with the Maracyn 2, I think the metro is much better, as it always targets protozoans in addition to anaerobic bacteria. I would prefer not to have to treat the water, since as you saw, it can really mess it your cycle while being not very effective.

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Ok,

I have a local vet who will let me buy 200MG Metronidazole tablets, but has no idea about dosage.

My last attempt at Gel food was not too great, so I have bought some organic Garden Pea, Zucchini and Spinach baby food, and a tub of gelatin powder.

Any further instructions or advice will be very welcome.

I have not see a poop for a couple of days, but have not been at home much

Edited by Mark_C
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Hi Alex,

picked up the pills, they are Metrogyl 200MG. I assume this is the same stuff?

The vet made some enquiries and got a recomendation of diluting one tablet in 38 litres of water, but I assume we should try to feed it to him instead?

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Hi Mark,

Definitely were are going to make it into food. Adding metronidazole to the water sometimes can be helpful, but it's nowhere near as effective as when the fish is actually ingesting it.

Here is a recipe of mine for gel food, modified to use gelatin and removing some ingredients:

Alex's No-Float Yummy Agar Gel Recipe, Part II:

- 8-10 oz low-sodium bagged/canned tuna

- 2 jars (8 oz) baby food.

- three eggs

- 1/2 teaspoon garlic

- blend this together until you get a nice purée consistency.

- crush two Metrogyl tablets well, add a teaspoon of water and mix. Set aside for now

- in a pot with lid, add 3 tablespoons of gelatin to 2 cups distilled spring/distilled water and turn heat on high

- when the water starts to boil, turn down heat to medium, add puree and stir slowly but well. If you have a whisk, use that.

- cover with lid, turn heat on high again, and let mixture come to a boil

- once boiling, occasionally lift lid to stir mixture, and let boil for about 2 minutes.

- remove from heat

- weigh out 40 grams of the food mixture. The rest of the food and be poured into a mold/pan and let set.

- with the 40 grams of the food, let it cool a bit, but do not let it gel. Once cool, add the metro solution, and mix well. Now let it set.

Both of the regular food and medicated food can be cut up into cubes, and most of it frozen. Thaw out individual cubes to feed. You can keep the thawed food in the fridge for a few days.

With the medicated food, if you let me know how much your fish weighs, I can make suggestions on how many cubes to cut, and how much to feed.

Let me know if you have other questions. It's a bit overwhelming making gel food at the beginning, but it's really not bad at all :)

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I have gone for a much more basic gel food, baby food with gelatine, (I don't have any of the other ingredients and no chance to get them as the shops are closed)

I measured out 40 grams as you said and mixed in the 2 crushed tablets, I have put it in the fridge so hopefully it will set quicker.

I weighed Gavin at 25 grammes, and he is back in the tank on his own now, as I moved the 2 babues into the bigger tanks so we can use this one for quarantine.

He is a bit stressed, and was easy to catch to weigh him, he seems to be going downhill now :(

Should I keep the water temperature up at 24 degrees C?

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Hi Alex,

I am a little confused, so I just want to double check.

If I cut the medicated food into 20 pieces, they will be very small, Should i then divide one of those 20 pieces up into 7 and feed him one bit per day?

It will be hard to sub-divide them up equally?

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I cut one of the 20 pieces into 7, and tried to feed him this, but he ignored it, so we have syringe fed him another one of those, he seems to have taken all of that, but is now floating upside down, maybe he has gulped some air??

I am starting to get very worried for him, as he has gone downhill very quickly since we fed him, is it worth adding one tablet to the tank as well, or will it overdose him?

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No, you can add one tablet to the tank if you like.

The reason why he is probably floating upside down is because he ate too much in a single setting :yikes

I'm sorry I wasn't clear earlier. One chunk of food as you fed him is the whole day's ration, and should be fed in 3-6 meals :D

So, for today, he's done. Starting tomorrow, please divide his day's food up and feed it to him in several meals :)

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