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goldylove

strange behaviour after salt treatment

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    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level
  • * Nitrite Level
  • * Nitrate level
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.0
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? aquamaster drops
  • * Water temperature? 20 degrees celcius
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?15 gal, 4 months
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?marine master crystal clear aquarium filter 380. 100 litres per hour.
  • * How often do you ch approx.ange the water and how much?usually once a week, about 30%
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? today, 25%

  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2, 1 1/2 - 2 inch each. 1 x common, 1 x fantail
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? aquarium salt, 1 tsp per 10 litres approx. during water changes, dechlorinator, stresszyme
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?daily, nutrafin max small sinking pellets
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? fantail 2 months ago
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.)
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. melafix/pimafix 5 days, aquarium salt ongoing
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?white patches on commons sides, 1 on one side, 3 smaller on the other & 1 on bottom of tail fin, all but tail fin have gone now
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?common is bottom sitting, darting to waters surface, not eating, seems unbalanced. fantail seems a little unbalanced also.

I apologise for the missing water parameters, i am waiting on a test kit. which will hopefully arrive in 2 days. i am also aware i will soon need a bigger tank for my babies & am looking at a 3 or 4 foot one for my birthday! :) apologies also for the very long post, i thought as much detail as possible would be helpful.

I originally got my common as a "starter" fish for my new tank. this was recommended to me by an actual aquarium, not some ill-informed pet shop or the like. i know this is frowned upon here but i did not know any better, i was not aware of such a thing as fishless cycling at the time & would have used this method had i been aware of it rather than stress the fish. i was assured the "comet" (i have now learned he is a common, not a comet) is a hardy fish & will do ok in a cycling tank.

indeed jaffa survived well & was joined by a fantail, nancy, a couple of months ago. gary the apple snail followed soon after. before she arrived i noticed jaffa displaying strange behaviour which i now know is called "flashing". he would go to one particular corner of the tank & do loop the loops at the wbottom, hitting the fine gravel i use in the tank about 3 or 4 times. i thought he was going mad from being lonely & didn't think it was a problem. he did it rarely, maybe once every week or two.

a couple of weeks ago i noticed jaffa developed a small white patch on his side, like cotton wool. a couple of smaller ones appeared on the other side & one on the bottom fin of his tail. his behaviour had not changed & he was perky & eating well as always. thinking this was fungus i tried melafix & pimafix to no avail. (had to remove gary as he reacted alarmingly whenever i dosed the tank!)

i removed jaffa to a smaller isolation tank (15litres) i put in some plastic plants from his home & some gravel & rocks, hoping to bring in some good bacteria to the new tank & new filter while i tried to treat his problem. i tried fungus cure first for 2 days(acriflavine/malachite green) then switched to multi cure (methylene blue/acriflavine/malachite green) for another 3 days, careful not to overdose i changed 50% water in between. he was still eating fine at this stage. about now i found kokos goldfish forum & started reading up about the benefits of salt as a cure. jaffa seemed miserable in his green water (homesick??) so i put him in a bowl of dechlorinated water while i changed his tank water 100%. did not change the filter media & left plants gravel etc in. very slight change to the white patches on him at this stage.

i added the first amount of dissolved salt (3 1/2 tsp for 3.6 gal) & returned jaffa to the tank. he handled it well & was swimming normally, altho had little interest in food at this point he was still perky. next day & all but the white spot on his tail had gone!! i was so happy!! he even ate one pellet of food. i added the second dose of salt to an aerated section of the tank away from the fish & this is where he went a bit funny. within minutes he started swimming at the top of the water only with his head sticking out. i've never seen him do this before. he continued to do this for about half an hour & i panicked, i siphoned half of the water out of the tank & replaced with fresh dechlorinated, bringing the salt level back down to where he was happy earlier. he was still acting strangely, swimming at the top & swimming into the corner like he had no sense of direction. i noticed at this stage i had mismatched the water temp by about 3 degees celcius & he was suddenly in warmer water. i removed him to a clean bucket of water of the correct temp & used an ice pack in a plastic bag to bring his tank down 3 degrees before putting him back in. i felt absolutely awful, knowing i had caused him so much stress in such a short time!! i covered the tank to make it dark hoping it would settle him. i checked an hour later & he was still wobbling around the top of the tank. another hour again & he seemed to be resting on the bottom of the tank. when he tried to swim he seemed disoriented still, bumping into things, tilting side to side a bit as he swam.

upon returning from work i saw his condition had not changed much. as there was only the small spot left on his tail left to heal i decided to return him to his home tank for comforts sake. i thought i noticed nancy swimming a little bit tilted also but i may be a bit oversensitive at the moment & she was just swimming normally for a fantail! she seemed to be lurking in one area of the tank a lot but still came out for food. i thought she was missing jaffa. when i put him back in she swam straight to him. upon return to his bigger tank jaffa kind of sat above the gravel & swam around only a little bit. he's had one manic episode of racing to the top of the water a few times almost like he wanted to leap out & swimming into the corner. he's definitely not acting normally & is very subdued right now.

basically i'm not sure if i have stressed him out with the salt or done something else wrong to harm him?? could this be flukes even? i am aware that the uncycled hospital tank may have not been ideal but i tried my best to make it as beneficial & clean as possible for him while he was treated. i am hoping he will return to normal in a day or two but am worried that i may have missed something & he wont get better, even after the white patches have now gone.

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hun, where abouts in Melb are you?

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edit* he's swimming around a little, fossicking in the sand a bit. i tried to give him pellets but he seemed to have trouble picking them up? actually got one in his mouth then spat it out again.... not as wobbly looking any more, hope he's better again tomorrow...

east side, box hill area

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are you able to get the other water params tested at the aquarium shop? they should test them for free..

i am in brunswick.. we're a fair distance away, otherwise, i would offer to visit with my test kits and all.

so right now, everyone's in the same tank? what level salt are you at in the main tank?

are you able to take a video, upload it to youtube or photobucket and post it here so we can see the behaviour of your fish?

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Hello, could you tell me what your tap pH is? If it's 7 or within 0.2 of 7, please do the following for me:

1. Remove fish into a separate container.

2. Remove all of the aquarium water.

3. Fill it back up + water conditioner.

4. Add fish back.

For now, that's what I would like for you to do daily, until you get your test kit. No salt. Nothing else. If you could switch to Seachem Prime as the conditioner, that would be fantastic. I would like to suggest this because they have been in a lot of different treatments, and it's hard to say now if one or a combination of them cause these symptoms. Let's scale back to just pristine water and regroup.

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thanks for your help peoples! i have uploaded a video

sorry about the poor picture quality, i had to use my mobile phone to do it! jaffa is not displaying the frantic behaviuor so far today, just listless, a little disoriented. his balance seems to have improved some & he's moving around the tank a little more. i've tried feeding them. nancys appetite is fine, jaffa still seems to have trouble picking up the pellets & he spat the ones he did pick up back out again. i don't think he's eaten more than 1 pellet in 2+ days now?? he is normally so greedy & energetic, so something is definitely not right. his fins seem a little paler than usual? they've always been black, that's how he was when i i bought him.

im on a search for some prime now at local fish shops... hopefully i can get some & do the water change before i have to go to work...

the salt is at about 1 tsp per 9-10 litres, i didn't add any for the last water change yesterday so there would be approx. 5 tsp in 56 litres of water.

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i seem to be having trouble locating prime in my area... i've rang 6 places & no-one has it!! one aquarium said they used to stock it but stopped as they found tanks using prime alway contained traces of ammonia & recommended just a regular dechlorinater on top of what good bacterai is in your tank will take care of ammonia 100%...

i'm taking some water to the local now & will get them to have a look at what's going on...

and the tap water here is 7.0 ph btw, sorry i forgot to answer that one!

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how often do you get to the city hun? i can give you my supplier's address in richmond.. he will have anything you need. or i guess anyone you know that travels as far as richmond may be able to pick some up for you? he's open as late as 6pm 6 days a week. closed tuesdays.

alex advised to remove all salt and fill the tank up again with just water and conditioner. i think this is a good idea.

the information you received about prime is incorrect. truth is.. seachem are notorious for dispatching late and stores here often get fed up as they're left without product for a long time.. that's why when i see it, i buy as much as i can and stock up good n proper... so they push to sell the alternative product as much as possible.. it is a conditioner, it does bind the ammonia a little bit.. but i found that it does not keep the water as well as seachem prime does between water changes. ie, i find that i need to add more on day 4 or 5 when i maintain a weekly routine of water change every 7 days.

the alternative product is safeguard 5

31015c78.jpg

this should do you for now until you get prime, but please don't put it off for too long. i think for now, until the patches on your fish go away and heal, daily water changes of minimum 60% are necessary. i don't see any flashing per se..

the fish have been exposed to enough meds during this time and are probably a little stressed from that also.. as well as having moved them around.

i would probably look at adding a heater to bring the temp up to 26C and also adding more air into the water with pump and airwand.. positioned in an area where they can swim though it and benefit from it.

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if you want to treat for flukes, there is a very mild treatment that is highly effective. this is the product i use to treat with:

aquamasterfluketapewormtabletsprazi25tabs-1.jpg

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i can get prime on ebay from new south wales. it should be here by the end of the week . the soonest i could get to richmond would be wednesday. i don;t mind travelling there, it's not that far really.

i'll go get the water tested now.

i'll do the water change after work, i've totally ran out of time today!

thanks for your help !

it would be handy to know your stockist in richmond too

thanks :)

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do you think it might be flukes?

can i treat for flukes with a snail in the tank or will it hurt him?

not questioning your expertise on the heating but 26 degrees seems very warm for goldfish!! i have a heater in there atm which is near the filter & an airstone... its set on 20 tho, which reads as 19 on the thermo on the front of the tank... it used to get very cold in there overnight, like 12 -14 & around 18 once the house heater was on & it warmed up inside. i thought they would be happier at a consistent 19-20 so put the heater in about a week ago...

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it's all trial :)

my fish are ryukin and telescopes with a few ranchu.. if i let the temp drop to 20C, they are innactive mainly. at 26C they're busy little bees all over the place. as they are all genetically modified now.. their organs are mainly complicated within and require a faster paced motabolism. by increasing the temp to 25-26C it increases their motabolism to reduce the possibility of constipation via the foods we feed.

by keeping the food moving at a good pace through their tract, we also reduce the possibility of bacteria forming. yes, fish will poop at a slightly faster pace, but they will be happier doing so :rofl

i notice also that you need to increase your weekly water change volume to 60% each time as a standard routine. but, for the next 4 or 5 days, because there is a problem present, you are advised to do daily water changes of the same volume. don't worry, this will not affect any beneficial bacteria that has formed in the filter(s) and your fish will love you for it :)

i notice you mention that he hasn't eaten for a few days. once you increase the water changes to daily, i would like you to keep an eye on how much he actually eats. sometimes, daily water changes encourages an appetite. i would also like you to keep an eye on his poop. ie, it's consistency, does it look like the food you feed or different colour.. does it have blood in it? are there bubbles in it that cause it to float to the surface? or is it stringy and white?

snails do not handle a high salt level very well. whenever we advise to salt to 0.2% or higher, we advise to remove snails and other live occupants that can be affected by a higher salt level that goldies can tolerate. if treating for flukes with the medicine i posted above together with salt at 0.1%, no, the snail does not need to be removed.. but if salt is required at a higher level, he will need to be removed. also, there are some live plants that do not handle high salt level either.

you are welcome to come visit brunswick if you like.. i have supplies here that i am happy to share and i make an awesome coffee! :)

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thankyou so much for your help!!

i went to the local to get my water tested... that's half an hour of my life i'll never get back! the guy was fumbling around in boxes for random bits & trying to match things from the same kit. he didn't have the colour chart for the kit he was using so had to ring another store (pets warehouse). if the results are anything to go by the ammonia test turned the water a very pale yellow, which is usually zero isn't it? according to the other store on the phone if the ammonia is zero then nitrite & nitrate are also zero. not sure if that's correct??

i've ordered some prime off ebay & hopefully it will be here by the end of the week. in the meantime should i do the 100% waterchange tonight or just the 60% daily til my test kit arrives? once i know the water parameters are perfect & behaviour still doesn't improve within a few days then i guess we are looking at something other than stress....

i REALLY appreciate all your patience & advice here! the little ones are part of the family, especially jaffa as he was #1 & it bothers me to see them unhappy & unwell.

stakos, thanks for the offer of supplies, and coffee! hopefully i can get myself set up properly by the end of the week. i need a strong coffee right now, gotta go to work when i'd rather be fixing my babies :(

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ok i got out as much water as i could, about 80% & replaced with fresh dechlorinated water with no other additives. no stresszyme or salt. i've added another video of jaffas strange behaviour after i returned them to the tank... weird lunging & swimming into the corner. i've never seen him go on top of the filters spray arm like that before either (i moved it down so he wont get himself stuck up there again) and another short clip of the erratic water breaking behaviour which he has done so violently that he's hitting the glass cover on top of the aquarium an inch above the waterline...

nancy is eating fine, jaffa still seems confused/not interested. i've just covered the tank with a towel to try & calm him.

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it's hard to watch him swimming like this, he's also missing a few scales i've noticed. not sure if it was from where the white patches were or he's done it with crazy swimming all over the place. really starting to worry now :(

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have been getting great help here from other members, just not sure what to do now??

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/102051-strange-behaviour-after-salt-treatment/

api test kit arrived this morning.... ammonia & nitrite are at zero. nitrate is showing up as a bright yellow, so not sure if that is zero or on its way to 5.0ppm?? ph is hard to read. looks like 7.0 on the aquamaster kit i have. api gives a pale blue result which i can't determine what it matches best on the chart, maybe 7.2??

jaffa is just bottom sitting now, not moving much at all. what should i do next? could it be bacterial infection??

sorry to bring this to 911, i need to know what to get from the shop asap. thanks!

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* correction- laying on his side on the bottom!!! :(

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Hello,

I'm sorry the issue has not improved. I see that your thread is getting active participation, so for the sake of keeping things together, I'm going to move these posts over there. If you like, I will move this to the 911 forum for you.

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he is mainly bottom sitting or laying on his side. when i touch him tho he takes off with a lot of energy & seems to swim ok for a minute, then drifts back to the bottom. i've dosed the water with prazi, i can't think of anything else to do right now. went to a reputable aquarium & they didn't think it sounded bacterial so have not tried antibiotics yet... definitely not eating still

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When did you dose in the Prazi? It's not unusual for fish with heave fluke burdens to bottom sit for the first 24-48 hours after initiation of treatment.

Is he eating? Have you seen his poop?

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i dosed with prazi about 10 hours ago. he was bottom sitting for a day before the medication was given... his fins are starting to look a bit ragged too now. not sure if it's from flailing around the tank or something else.... currently no change. still sitting on the bottom of the tank or laying on his side... still a strong reaction to being touched (see video) so i'm hoping this is promising?? plenty of oxygen in the water, clean water, prazi. i have also added blue conditioning salts as recommended by the aquarium i went to (1tsp per 10 litres). as the water here in melbourne is "soft" it apparently helps to make it better for goldfish & adds beneficial minerals. i am really at a loss & willing to take whatever advice informed people can suggest atm... :(

sorry for poor camera work & video quality

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also, still too disoriented to eat so no poop to analyse unfortunately

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hun.. send me your postal details and full name to sparez@bigpond.net.au i'll send some meds out that may help.

you will need to weigh your fish for this.. here is a video of how i know best to weigh my fish, i talk through it..

let us know how much your fish weighs and we will work out a dose for the meds i send you.. you will need to make some gelfood for that, so you will need some simple veggies and some gelatine to bind it all together.. we will cross that bridge once you receive the meds on thursday. will send them express.

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i'm not sure how i will get him to eat them but im willing to try anything! and i can get some digital scales tomorrow. he's pretty small! thankyou :)

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We have a few ways we can try.. If you can pick up a stringe also, it may come in handy.

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