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Ruby's mouth is looking weird


IsabellaG

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Test Results:

  • Ammonia Level 0
  • Nitrite Level 0
  • Nitrate level between 0 and 5 - dark yellow, not orange
  • Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
  • Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
    Other Required Info:
  • Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API
  • Water temperature? 19 C
  • Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 53 gallons, 8 m.
  • What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Eheim 2215 canister with outlet wand and internal Eheim 2012 with air diffuser
  • How often do you change the water and how much? weekly 50-70%
  • How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday 90% and Friday last week 60%

  • How many fish in the tank and their size? Ruby 7 cm Patches 5 cm (w.o. tail)
  • What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
  • What do you feed your fish and how often? once a day Spirulina flakes (pre-soaked in tank water), blood worms (1xweek), spinach or peas (1x week)
  • Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • Any medications added to the tank? Aqua worm 4th round and salt between 0.2 and 0.3% (salt ran out)
  • List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) Flukes
  • List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • One earlier fluke treatment maybe 3 months ago then on 6 July started Prazi again see earlier thread below. Medication is Aquaworm in tablet form, 100mg Praziquantel per tablet, which I crushed as fine as possible and stirred in water before adding to tank. Directions for this medication: 1 tablet per 20 litre, after 48 hours change approximately 25% of the water. Repeat after 7 days if necessary. I did two rounds this way, but there was still head shaking, yawning and flashing etc. So I posted below thread and after consultation with Alex decided to do another 3 rounds. I started round 3 that weekend (21 July I think) 5 days later did big water change replaced salt and added prazi the next day to start round 4.
  • Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? For the past two weeks Ruby 'yawned' in a super stretchy way - a lot! To the point where her poor mouth now looks like she has dislocated her jaw :-( She can't close her mouth anymore and the skin has stretched and has gone white (as if the colour has been stretched out).
  • Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? She doesn't look happy and 'hides' under the filter. There is no bottom sitting, her dorsal fin is up and she is still eating although she can't pick up the food, she now inhales it. She has food coloured poop but also some bubbly, thin casing still. Patches eats normally and is active, dorsal is up, does bottom rest sometimes and has long very thin white poop as well normal food coloured poop.
  • See: http://www.kokosgold...__fromsearch__1) for previous posting.

I finished round 4 but did not start round 5 of Prazi because I felt she might be reacting badly to the medication. I've been feeling worried and bad for Ruby and so I did another very thorough vacuum of the tank and scrubbing of the driftwood and silk plants with a 90% water change yesterday. She still shakes her head and yawns, but not as often as in the past two weeks. I've been wondering if now it is getting to be a bad habit or maybe she does it now to get rid of the feeling of having a weird mouth?? Surely there can be no more flukes after 4 rounds of Prazi (Alex calculated that Aquaworm directions was 2.5x the amount suggested in his fish treatment book ). Why is Ruby behaving this way? What can be done for her poor mouth?

Here is a video:

I hate seeing her this way :-(

Thanks for looking!

Edited by Isabella
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Oh my gosh. Poor Ruby. I don't think that you need to continue the Prazi treatment or the salt.

I think flukes and associated infections sometimes can cause the mouth to collapse, although this tends to look more like a parrot beak, and you can see this more in fry.

As long as she is able to eat, she should be fine. The yawning that you see now is a you said...to clear the gills and to right the strange mouth conformation.

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i am wondering if something was previously stuck without your knowledge and she managed to spit it out but the mouth was stretched too far? will speak with the mod team to see what thoughts they have. i don't see bacteria or parasite issues.

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i wonder if a gentle push either side of the mouth, ie, i very soft squeeze with finger and thumb either side of the mouth (not much force at all) may help? it kinda looks like the joining bits either side of the mouth have been forced out.

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Thank you guys for your fast responses!! Feel relieved that I didn't make a bad decision not starting round 5!

I'll try squeezing. Bit nervous about that, I haven't handled her all that much (couple of times maybe) and the last time she put up quite a struggle.

Should I squeeze softly with her head under the water or lift her head out of the water a bit?

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i would do it underwater, infact, i would probably remove her to a medium size tub, get her used to being cupped loosely in my hand before i tried to do anything more.

in order to get this to fully close:

2b1cdb5e.jpg

i think the gentle push needs to happen here where the arrows are pointing:

206ff8b6.jpg

really, just be really gentle, if it doesn't work, then we might be able to look at other things.

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Thanks Helen, I actually just managed it before I read your post :-)

I tried it under water and squeezed the sides where you indicated, softly but firmly. It hasn't made a difference that I can see (but maybe it needs a bit more time?). Then I thought maybe if I pushed it from the front because it seemed that her mouth is permanently extended too. So I caught her again (poor thing) and softly pushed from the front. Again I don't think it made a difference. Maybe because her natural reaction was to extend her mouth because she was trying to push me away.

I'm also thinking that if the squeeze/push worked (even for a bit - fingers crossed) it may take a few days to settle?

Thanks for the good wishes coco :-)

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Hmm, just re-read your post Helen. I may have undone the effects of the squeeze at the sides by doing the push from the front (although I did let go and checked after the squeeze before I did the push)

:no:

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I'd be most interested to hear if there is anything else I can do.

Ruby's sides of her mouth felt sharp-ish. I'm supposing it is segmented? Does anyone have a picture of the anatomy of a goldfish' mouth?

It's past 1 am and I'm off to bed. Good night, good people, I'll check in again tomorrow!

:k045:

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Coming from someone that had a fish with mouth issues, I hope yours heals quickly! If not, there are a lot of ways you can help feed the fish. If you need any advice, let me know. :) Good luck!

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Thanks Jolly, I may need to take you up on that!

this is info I found online

"Dislocated Jaws Dislocated jaws are a common problem among aquarium fish that fight by pulling at one another’s jaws, especially when the two combatants are seriously mismatched. Firemouth cichlid fish regularly suffer this way when kept alongside cichlid fish with stronger jaws, such as convict cichlid fish. Oscars, eartheaters and angelfish are prone to this problem too. Unfortunately, there’s no effective therapy, and if the damaged aquarium fish cannot feed itself it eventually starves to death. Fish jaws are much too delicate to be “popped” back into position, though a vet may try to do so with very large fish. Observe the damaged fish, and if it cannot feed, it will need to be euthanized." From an article by a zoologist on a website called Fishchannel.

I also found this on the Koivet Forum:

"What we normally recommend is to place something like a toothpick across the valley of the jaw (like the pointy end of the V) and give it a push to see if you can close the jaw again. However, with a young fish, the toothpick is probably too thick and something thinner is required. Maybe a length of thin wire. There is no guarantee that it will work as they are so fragile but if you have exhausted all options then you got not much to lose."

the first bit of info is depressing to say the least. Although Ruby is my biggest goldie, she still is smallish. I'm not sure if she qualifies as being big enough for her jaw being "popped into place". Her only saving grace is that she is still eating (but her food intake has diminished considerably) and is still active, but she is in distress. I'll see if I can find an aquatic vet here in Perth. Oh and I can't quite visualise the treatment in the second bit of info.

I'll be back after dinner!

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OMG, I found a mobile aquatic vet. He does house visits because it is important to see the environment in which the fish is kept before making a diagnosis! He takes a small mobile lab with him and does minor surgery at home too! I've sent him an email to see what his fees are (we live in the outskirts of Perth). Keeping fingers crossed!

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hun, the only other option is to find methods to feed. pulp like food directly into mouth with syringe and this is a permanent arrangement. i am hoping you will be able to or the vet will be able to do something to help ruby.

how long has ruby been like this? you may need to make the first feed for now until you sort vet issues.

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OMG, I found a mobile aquatic vet. He does house visits because it is important to see the environment in which the fish is kept before making a diagnosis! He takes a small mobile lab with him and does minor surgery at home too! I've sent him an email to see what his fees are (we live in the outskirts of Perth). Keeping fingers crossed!

Bingo :goodluck best option

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Hi Helen,

Yeah, I'm hoping the vet will be able to do something. In the meantime I can figure out ways to feed. She is still eating and poop still comes out. She's just not eating as much as she used to. She was the great gobbler :undecided: . I'll have to get hold of a syringe. I'm also thinking of getting a breeder box to catch her in when it is feeding time - that may be a bit gentler on her than catching her with my hand. Also a breeder box will catch all the excess food - easier for me to take out and prevent fouling the water.

She's been like this for just over a week I would say.

One other thing. the skin around her mouth is splitting and peeling. Is there something I can do for her, would salting to 0.1% help her at all??? (I've pretty much taken all the medication and salt out the tank at the moment).

I can't help feeling she is in distress, trying to put her mouth right by shaking her head time and again or hiding under the filter with her mouth open. She still comes out when it is feeding time and if you didn't look at her mouth, she still looks pretty healthy (dorsal fin up). I'm not thinking of euthanising yet, because I haven't tried everything yet and she is still so active, but what is her quality of life?

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has the skin around her mouth become like this because of the extra activity from her and yourself trying to right the problem? or are you suspecting something more like columnaris? ie, is it like cotton wool like or strandish like?

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I think it is because she been stretching her mouth so much. It isn't cotton wool or fuzzy

here is a pic, sorry it is dark,but because her mouth is white (like the orange colour has been stretched thin), it overexposes so I turned the light off. I hope you can still see.

IMG_4250.jpg

I think peeling is a right description.

Edit, hmm that doesn't show up well at all. I'll try another one with my other camera

Edited by Isabella
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if you are able to shine a torch from above and wait for her to enter the light, i think that will be better, it will show all that's coming away from the mouth. if you're confident that it's just peeling, then she may be rubbing it around trying to force it shut again.

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