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GreenTea

QT for large oranda going poorly, please help!

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I have no money for additional medicine until tomorrow evening when I get paid. On hand I have aquarium salt, epsom salt, prime, stress coat, quick cure and parasite guard. It should also be noted the ranchu in the tank is doing some bottom sitting and heavy breathing like the oranda but not exhibiting any issues. Did I almost kill them both?


    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level - 0 - .25
  • * Nitrite Level - 0
  • * Nitrate level - (ran out of drop tests)
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7- 7.2
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7 - 7.2
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
  • * Water temperature? 70 - 73
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10 gallon QT tank
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Two small sponge filters and a 30 gallon HOB filter with carbon removed.
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 25% once a day - test the water daily.
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Last night - 80% to remove meds.

  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 fish, one small ranchu and one large oranda.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? api stress coat
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? nls pellets, blood worms, peas
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? just these two in qt at the same time
  • * Any medications added to the tank? parasite guard, aq salt, stress coat, or quick cure as described in the first paragraph.
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) n/a

  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. This oranda had just come out of QT at petsmart but I decided to QT her anyway when I got home after my disaster losing my last stock due to improper QT. I treated her with parasite guard tabs, which has prazi as the first active ingredient, as well as metro and one or two other things. After that treatment I did a double dose of quick cure (at the stores recommendation) with a half dose of AQ salt for a few days. For water conditioner I have been using stress coat as the fish had just come out of QT and had a few scales missing.
    The oranda now has clamped fins and is slightly front heavy and doing a bit of bottom sitting. Sometimes she swims normally, sometimes she sits. Have I just stressed and nearly killed my oranda with medications that were unnecessary? I am absolutely beside myself, I checked with the store every day until she came out of QT and am so worried about her. I don't want to lose her. Her poops are coated in a whitish coating and she has basically stopped eating.

  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? As of today the fins have a few frayed looking white ends, the poop is covered in a whitish coating and she's not eating much. I see no parasites of any kind or bloody streaks. Breathing is VERY LABORED AND SLOW AND SHALLOW.

  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Not eating, bottom sitting, top heavy, seems a little wobbly due to clamped fins.

If there is anyone in the portland or vancouver area who would like to come by and see the fish or knows of a vet who can help fish, please don't hesitate to contact me. I am absolutely beside myself! :cry1

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Oops, forgot to attach pictures. I hope we can save my fish. She seems to be deteriorating rapidly. Sponge filters are on full blast to help aerate. What can I do to fix this situation?

image2.jpg

image_3-1.jpg

Here is the white poop ^

image_22.jpg

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One of the wonderful mods will be able to help shortly.

What is in the API General Cure? I know their Quick Cure contains formalin.

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Hello,

I would like for you to do another 80% WC, taking care to match the temp when you do the change. Add nothing to the water, except for Prime. Please do not use stress coat (explanation below).

I think one of the biggest issue here is the the fish's gills are likely overwhelmed from the combination of the meds.

- Parasite Guard is OK as a treatment, and it contains some good things. However, the protocol is not long enough, and it needs to be followed up with Prazipro or some sort of praziquantel. If the fish had flukes or some other gill parasites, the gills would still be recovering.

- Quick Cure is extremely harsh, as it contains formalin. On a fish already with sensitive gills, it makes it worse.

- The Stress Coat actually can coat the gills, making it more difficult for the fish.

So, this combination of treatment is really tough on the fish. Right now, we just need to get her out of all that, and into fresh, clean water.

Could you upload a video of her, please?

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Alex thank you so much for replying! You have been so helpful and welcoming and I really appreciate it. Holy crap I was off base. I don't know the general cure forumla I think quick cure is formalin and machalite green or however it's spelled.

Parasite guard has praziquantel in it as the first ingredient, I was going to repeat it 3 times 48 hours apart each time as recommended on the box. What do you think of this? Assuming she survives, should I give it a week and try this treatment again? Should I no longer use quick cure?

I have to charge my camera, I just tried and the battery is dead :( I will do that and come back (I don't have internet at home so I have to drive somewhere to get it.) and upload it for you. Sorry the photos are crummy, I took them with my cell phone. I hope you or someone else will be on tonight to help me. I'm going home to do as you say, I will be back in about an hour I'm guessing with a video.

Edited by GreenTea

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We are all very happy to be helpful here! :)

As for medicating her further, this can wait. For now, what external issues she may have probably have knocked back by the treatments. Let's just give her nice new water with only Prime in it to recuperate.

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Hey Alex I went home and did the change on my QT tank and there was an immediate difference. I took a before and after video. The one where she looks DEAD is before, the one where she swims a bit is after. Her breathing is still labored but it looks like her gills move easier and she's scooting around the QT tank now. I will try to upload the videos now.

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Here are the vids. First one is before, the second is after the WC.

http://s7.photobucke...07-19at1850.mp4

http://s7.photobucke...07-19at1818.mp4

If Alex or someone else with lots of knowledge could respond - When if ever is it appropriate to use stress coat? When if ever is it appropriate to use quick cure?

The woman at the store said I should DOUBLE the salt and DOUBLE the quick cure ALONG WITH the parasite treatment. Clearly I have learned my lesson...

If those medications are not the best, can you suggest some alternatives I stock up on for the major issues - sbd, injury to wen or body and parasites?

Any help you can provide in this area would be much appreciated. Thanks again.

Annnddd also should I do any daily changes with just prime? Is there a chance she'll die? How often should I keep up fresh water? I may be able to check back tonight or if not, I will check for responses tomorrow night.

Edited by GreenTea

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Hello,

I am hoping that she will make a full recovery, but it's not something we can predict. I can tell you, however, that I've seen fish in much worse conditions recover. So, we cross our fins, and we do what we can to help her her :)

The key here now is to just give her lots of infusions of fresh clean (and Primed) water. 80% daily water changes with matching temps and pH would be perfect. You don't need to remove her/them from the tank to do the changes. Here, we just want fresh water, and only Prime. Nothing else. Perhaps eventually we will add a low dose of salt to the water, but nothing beats clean water to help a fish recover :)

I do think that Stress Coat can be a useful tool, just like Melafix/Pimafix, and other of these gentle products. With Stress Coat, it can be helpful with external injuries etc, but it's not to be used regularly. You should also check to see if it may act with something else to possibly produce negative effect. As far as water conditioners go, personally I just use Prime, because I have not found any need for any other products. :)

Quick Cure can be very effective in treating some things, but most of the time (actually, nearly all the time) we avoid using it, because it's very harsh. Formalin is toxic, both to the fish and those who handle the reagents, and is a potential cancer-causing agent. Malachite green is another potential carcinogen, and these two work together in a synergistic way, meaning that their effects are not additive but multiplicative (effects of the two together are much more powerful than the sum of both single agents). So, we try to avoid these super strong chemicals in favor of things that are just as effective. When in doubt, always seek second or third opinions :)

Finally, I'm happy to help anytime, but just keep in mind that anyone on the moderation team, along with a lot of our experienced members of the forum, can help with these issues. That's one of the things I really love about this forum, and that's the fact that we have such incredible depths of knowledge among the membership. I just happen to be online a lot, so you are likely to see me posting a lot, that's all :P

Good luck, and update us as frequently as you like, please. :)

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One thing I would like to suggest... Sponge filters arent the best for goldfish unless they are fry's. I would suggest getting another HOB filter, goldfish need 10x an hour filtration :thumb:

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Hey Koko, thanks for your response. There is a hob filter in both my tanks, the 10 gallon qt has a hob of unknown size, I'm guessing it suites a 30 or 50 gallon and my large hob filters 400 an hour which is not ideal, but pretty darn close. I was having some weird ammonia issues for awhile so I got the sponge filters to help with that. I had the little ones from my betta fry so I put them in my qt tank. Until I can upgrade to crazy big filters my water changes will have to do the trick, my big tank is successfully cycled and has had no problems with readings which is awesome. The sponge filters really helped my situation and the goldfish like to peck at them looking for food so I think I will leave them. There is no risk with having them in there is there?

Update on big fish : She is doing much better, eating again and swimming all around her tank although she does spend some time on the bottom, it is less and she can swim better. Her fins are happy!

... Even though I almost killed her with stress coat... those damaged scales are all healed up :clapping: Gotta look on the bright side right? Thank you for saving my fish.

Edited by GreenTea

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Yay! I'm glad things are much better!

Any chance you could update with with new parameters and video of them? :)

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I am so glad she is doing better, she is one beautiful fish............I can see why you were scared she wasn't gonna make it...........I learned too, from experience and at the mercy of many a fish NOT to listen to every thing the "pet store people"' say.............I too used too many products in the past............Stress coat, Proper ph, etc......and learned that sometimes good clean water (as in water changes) was best.............when I stopped adding chemicals (except for salt) my fish improved. My goldies got a water change today JUST BECAUSE..............they had one Wednesday too........... :gfish::D

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My goldies got a water change today JUST BECAUSE..............they had one Wednesday too........... :gfish::D

I like the way you work! :thumbs:

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Hey Koko, thanks for your response. There is a hob filter in both my tanks, the 10 gallon qt has a hob of unknown size, I'm guessing it suites a 30 or 50 gallon and my large hob filters 400 an hour which is not ideal, but pretty darn close. I was having some weird ammonia issues for awhile so I got the sponge filters to help with that. I had the little ones from my betta fry so I put them in my qt tank. Until I can upgrade to crazy big filters my water changes will have to do the trick, my big tank is successfully cycled and has had no problems with readings which is awesome. The sponge filters really helped my situation and the goldfish like to peck at them looking for food so I think I will leave them. There is no risk with having them in there is there?

Update on big fish : She is doing much better, eating again and swimming all around her tank although she does spend some time on the bottom, it is less and she can swim better. Her fins are happy!

... Even though I almost killed her with stress coat... those damaged scales are all healed up :clapping: Gotta look on the bright side right? Thank you for saving my fish.

The reason is... As you see the pick at it, eventually it will start to decay. Trust me I tried it myself as I know this area (out side Portland Area) has .25 ammonia in the water. Also I found that over time they will harbor bad bacteria as the food gets trapped in the base and such.... Just my :twocents

I find it alot easier to have the HOB filters with goldfish. :thumb:

Im so glad hes doing better :)

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Hey Koko we are close to each other! I'm going to troll The Wet Spot and World of Wet Pets today in Portland for a good filter. I like the sponge filters for surface agitation too, I am worried the outflow from the hob won't be enough as it just gently sort of skims the top of the water. Is that enough agitation? I would love to get a bubble wand I think they're called but I don't really know anything about them or what to look for in one. Thank you for that information. Would my rinsing them help with that at all? I would also really like to get some taller silk plants for my tank, it looks a little basic with just the short and medium silk plants and large rocks. There is frog bit growing on the surface but it still feels a little bare. "The Wet Spot" in Seattle (my hometown) is a different kind of store... When someone suggested I go there for fish supplies I was a bit confused at first. :rofl

Thank you for all of the valuable information and cheers everyone! I am overjoyed. Her name is "Lex" or Lexie after you dnalex - I know if it wasn't you someone else would have saved her life, but IT WAS you and she'll get your name. I'm still deciding on names for the rest of them but naming her for you just seemed like the right thing to do, without you, I may have lost her. It really felt like she had maybe a few hours, a day or two at most.

Sharkbait - My 55 gal has been getting daily 25% changes to help phase out the stress coat, the smaller fish are doing better today (the stress coat was not making their life easy!) And also I have heard that every time you change the water it helps the fish to grow. Is there any truth to this? Regardless, it's been happening and they are happy fish. The woman who told me about doubling all the meds and using them together works at a fish store in Seattle thats been running forever and I actually have known her for awhile too outside of that business. I just trusted her to have good info, but now I know better. I am learning so much!

I had to separate the big fish from the ranchu because she was bullying the little ranchu who is still having a bit of a hard time but also seems to be improving. Tank readings for ammonia and nitrite are 0 and ph is 7.2 and I will try to get a video up later. I am in love with this fishy, wish I could give her a hug :heart and you too kokos members :wub:

Edited by GreenTea

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I like the sponge filters for surface agitation too, I am worried the outflow from the hob won't be enough as it just gently sort of skims the top of the water. Is that enough agitation? I would love to get a bubble wand I think they're called but I don't really know anything about them or what to look for in one. Thank you for that information. Would my rinsing them help with that at all? I would also really like to get some taller silk plants for my tank, it looks a little basic with just the short and medium silk plants and large rocks. There is frog bit growing on the surface but it still feels a little bare. "The Wet Spot" in Seattle (my hometown) is a different kind of store... When someone suggested I go there for fish supplies I was a bit confused at first. :rofl

My 55 gallon tank Has two HOB filters and a Power head. AquaClear filters acutually push alot of water into the tank, and if you have plants we some times baffle the out take of them :) Also a tank should have atleast one spot where its kinda slow moving water. This gives them a spot to rest while sleeping :)

I dont like the noise of the Air pumps so I went with a Power head.

Rinsing them will wash out your BB's so you would have to do them one at a time. Plus I found that once my fish got to about 4" big they where taking bigger chunks out of it and trying to eat it..... :yikes

Oh yeah the first time I saw the name of that store I was like :yikes WHAT! :lol3

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They should have called it "Something's Wet" :rofl

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The one thing I worry about is your Oranda is starting to feel better and I can see all ready the nipping. meaning eventually she will start to nip on that sponge :(

Your oranda is starting to perk up so keep up the good work. I worry about the little ranch now.. in the video he seems to be just aimlessly floating.

Have you ever treated this guys in salt or prazi?

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Yeah I have, I'm worried about the ranchu too, I'm still trying.

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I agree with Koko that there is quite a bit of clamping going on in this video with the little ranchu.

Do you have aquarium salt, and a container where you can accurately measure out 1-2 gallons of water, GreenTea? I would like to do a mild salt dip on the ranchu.

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OK, measure out either 1 or two gallons of water, add the appropriate amount of Prime.

If you have a holding tank with Primed water and bubble stone where you can keep her for about 1-2 hours after the dip, prepare that, too. If not, add a single dose of Prime to your main tank.

Then for each gallon of water, add 15 level teaspoons of salt and make sure it's dissolved. Get a timer.

Check to see that the temp of the salt water and the main tank are about equal. Then gently lift the ranchu and place him/her into the salt solution. Start the count. The most he/she should stay in there is 5 minutes, although if you can obvious signs of distress, especially if she's tipped over and cannot regain balance, then remove her. place her into holding or main tank.

That's it. Report back on how she does. We'll want to do this again in a couple of days, with a bit stronger salt solution, but let's take this one step at a time :)

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Ooh I'm not sure if I have that much salt, I will do as much as I have up to that amount. Will let you know tomorrow.

What do you think the clamping is about? What does the saltwater dip help with?

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