Ruby in trouble - I think flukes

[IsabellaG]

Hi all,

I'll fill out the form after this first post :-) And sorry about the long post again - I like to be thorough :-)

As you know Misty died about a week ago with what I now suspect was flukes. Ruby, Misty and Patches all had on and of stringy poop and were bottom sitting. I first thought it might be constipation and fed peas and spinach. When there was no improvement I thought it might be flukes. I started treatment with Aqua Worm from Science Products. Active constituent: Praziquantel 100 mg/Tab. Directions: 1 tablet per 20L of aquarium water. After 48 hours change approximately 25% of the water. The dose may be repeated after 7 days to prevent re-investation.

I added the crushed tablets to the water and added 0.1% salt on Friday 6 July and upped to 0.2% salt on Saturday. On Sunday Misty died. I had only just taken out the Quarantine tank for Misty whose bottom sitting was getting worse, so she was still in the tank with Ruby and Patches. After I took Misty out of the tank, I vacuumed the gravel thoroughly and I changed the 25% of the water and upped the salt to 0.3%. On Saturday 14 July (after 8 days, not 7) I did an 80% water change and put in the second round of Prazi. I also re-started the salt first at 0.1% and since Monday it's at 0.3% (well a little over at 0.35%).

Both Ruby and Patches have increased yawning and started flashing see video below. Patches in a mild way. But Ruby quite violently at times. She's banged herself against the aquarium a couple of times. Both have stringy poop again (normal poop too). No bottom sitting other than bottom hovering when it is dark in their tank. Still active, with dorsals up and still hungry. I do see Ruby yawning when she is eating, and spitting food out, but then she gobbles it up again. Patches is eating normally

Tonight we came home and it was dark already. So I switch on the light in the fish tank and both Ruby and Patches are bottom hovering which doesn't worry me too much, but Ruby is bottom hovering at a 45 degree angle, so now I'm worried. I've got a pic of this below.

Questions I have:

Why am I still seeing yawning and flashing after this second round of Prazi?

Will what is still left in the tank: 0.35 % salt and 75% Prazi, kill of the remainder of the flukes?

Can I do a third round of Prazi, even though this isn't mentioned on the bottle?

What more can I do???

Early on in the video you can see Ruby yawning and shaking. Also could you guys take a look at her right eye?? There is something white on it. Could this be a parasite or is it just from banging against the aquarium wall? There is a small white mark on her right gill too - it's not very visible, but maybe it's a cut, also from banging her head against the window?

at an angle

white blobby thing on eye and very faint white cut on gill?

Patches yawning

Edited July 10, 2012 by Isabella

[dnalex]

I'll wait for the rest of the parameters etc, but just wanted to say that we routinely do 4-6 rounds of Prazi actually.

Could you please link me to the how many mg is in each tablet of Prazi? I want to check something out. Also, please describe exactly how to mix the tablets, and also your treatment schedule.

Thanks.

[IsabellaG]

Hi Alex,

Is that with the liquid Prazi Pro?? Is that comparable with the tables?

[dnalex]

Hi Alex,

Is that with the liquid Prazi Pro?? Is that comparable with the tables?

Hi Isabella,

Praziquantel is praziquantel. The Prazipro happens to be in liquid form, so it makes life a tad easier, but dosage etc is still the same.

[IsabellaG]

Here are the answers to the questions

Test Results for the Following:

• * Ammonia Level 0
  
• * Nitrite Level 0
  
• * Nitrate level between 0 and 5 - dark yellow, not orange
  
• * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
  
• * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
  Other Required Info:
• * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API
  
• * Water temperature? 18 C
  
• * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 53 gallons, 7 m.
  
• * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Eheim 2215 canister with outlet wand and internal Eheim 2012 with air diffuser
  
• * How often do you change the water and how much? weekly 50-70%
  
• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  
• yesterday 25% and Saturday 80%
  

• * How many fish in the tank and their size? Ruby 7 cm Patches 5 cm (w.o. tail)
  
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
  
• * What do you feed your fish and how often? once a day Spirulina flakes, blood worms (1xweek), spinach or peas (1x week)
  
• * Any new fish added to the tank? No
  
• * Any medications added to the tank? Aqua worm 2nd round and salt
  
• * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.)
  
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. One earlier fluke treatment maybe one month ago
  
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? white thing on eye
  
• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? see below
  

[IsabellaG]

thanks Alex! That's good to know! I'm thinking to do another round of medication. The directions on the bottle I have say repeat dose after 7 days. At Koko's you normally advice a different medication schedule. Shall I keep to the directions on the bottle or use Koko's schedule?

[dnalex]

I don't think that it makes a huge difference between 5 and 7 day rounds. I prefer 5 to give the flukes less time to expand and also to give the fish more water changes during this time.

Did you see the part up above about how you mix the med into the water, and dosage? Could you give me those please? Thanks!

[IsabellaG]

Blobby white thing is on Ruby's left eye! Please disregard what I said earlier about right side !!!

i.

[IsabellaG]

Not sure I see what you refer to, but dosage is: 1 tablet per 20 litre of aquarium water. I crushed 9.5 tablets (for approx 190 litres in tank) with a spoon until it is very fine, mixed it with tank water and poured it in the tank. Although I crushed it as fine as I could, it looked like it had snowed in the tank.

(is this the info you need?)

[dnalex]

It's part of the info I needed

How many milligrams Prazi per tablet?

[IsabellaG]

It's 100 mg/tab

Thanks :-)

[dnalex]

The dose that you are using is 2.5x the amount suggested in Noga, which means that it should be more than sufficient. The tilting sideways is a pretty good give away that the dosage of Prazi is a bit high. However, this effect is not permanent, and should go away once medication is taken out.

I would do 5 rounds at least

[IsabellaG]

Thanks very much Alex. Sorry I have more questions :-)

Do you think I should lower the dosage to 1 tablet per 25 liters, taking it to 2x the dosage when I do another 3 rounds? Should I keep the salt at 0.3% throughout the 5 rounds? I found a prazi schedule here on Koko's, and I'd like to follow this instead of the directions on the bottle. Do you think that would be okay with the double dose? I really want to make sure I eradicate these flukes, but I don't want to cause undue stress to Ruby and Patches either.

Round 3

Day 1: Big WC (>50%), add Prazi.

Day 5: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi.

Round 4

Day 6: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi.

Day 10: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi.

Round 5

Day 11: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, and add Prazi.

Day 15: Big WC (>50%), replace salt, but do not add Prazi.

I really appreciate your help!

Isabella

[dnalex]

I think that dosing is fine, although if you would like to lower it to 1 per 25L, that's fine also

That schedule works very well; I recommend it highly

[IsabellaG]

Thanks again Alex! I'll start this weekend with my next water change and I'll keep track of what I'm doing here :-)

Is the Noga you refer to, this book? I might put that on my Christmas wish list :-)

Oh yes, I meant to say to that Ruby's tilting disappeared after the light was on for a bit and they started swimming again and I didn't see it this morning, phew!

Edited July 11, 2012 by Isabella

[dnalex]

Yes, that's the Noga I'm talking about. It's one of several tomes of reference that I look up all the time

[IsabellaG]

Hi there,

Ruby is clamping a bit more and Patches is bottom hovering a bit more and they both look a bit more miserable this evening:-(

Both Ruby and Patches are both still yawning and twitching. There is normal poop, but I still see empty poop casings too as well as some with tight white cork screwy things in the casings.

Currently there is: 0.3% salt and 0.75% of round 2 of the prazi tablets in the water, which normally would be taken out slowly with the water changes.

I was planning to start round 3 of Prazi tomorrow by first changing 50% of the water today and then another 50% tomorrow, but now I'm thinking I should change as much of the water as I can with the fish still in the tank and do the 3rd round of Prazi this evening?

I just wanted to run this passed you to make sure I'm doing the right thing???

Also with the salt would I re-salt up to 0.1% first and then gradually bring up t 0.3% over the weekend?

[koko]

That sounds good hun

[IsabellaG]

Thanks Koko! Goldies tank cleaned and medicated

Sorry wasn't online to answer yesterday. Went to bed with cold/flu symptoms - yuck! Now have a betta with fin nipping/rot, two goldies with flukes and three humans with a bad case of snivels. The grass-head is doing fine though (my daughter's school holiday project - pantyhose with potting mix and grass seeds and two stick on eyes - a grass head )

[IsabellaG]

Hi All,

Here is an update on the Prazi treatment:

Round 3 - day 2

Ruby really doesn't like Prazi. She was trying 'get it out' with some violent yawning and shaking of her head yesterday - so much so that I thought I should take the Prazi out. I didn't though. Today is a bit less, but she still does this YUCK, YUCK, YUCK yawn / shake. Patches does the 'this is yuck' yawn too, but not nearly as violent or as regular as Ruby. I've still got three days to go before the first water change. Will this be okay with Ruby reacting the way she is? Or should I do a water change sooner?

I'm downloading a video as I;m typing this.

And I'm putting some pics up (just because I've taken a gazillion)

Thanks in advance for looking:

video - still loading

here are the photos:

Ruby - you can still see the white blobby thing in her eye - I'm thinking she maybe hit her eye when she was shaking her head and hit the wall (didn't witness this, but that's what it sounded like - any ideas what this might be??

Patches

Ruby and Patches :-)

Edited July 16, 2012 by Isabella

[dnalex]

Hi Isabella,

That shake is the fluke shake, and usually happens after the first couple of hours of adding the Prazi. It should go away or decrease dramatically after a day. I think it's another indirect indication that they had flukes.

How are both doing?

[IsabellaG]

Thanks for easing my worries Alex :-)

Apart from this 'what have we done to deserve this' look I'm getting, they seem to be doing good:

Ruby's yawning and shaking isn't as violet today as it was yesterday. Patches only has occasional yawning (no shaking). Ruby's poop today was green and a bit bubbly. Patches' poop was clear casing with white bits in it and longer than her tail this morning. Now she's producing food coloured poop. No bottom sitting at all from Ruby or Patches.

Dorsal fins are up majority of time :-)

BTW, what do you think of that white blob in Ruby's eye ?

Edited July 16, 2012 by Isabella

[IsabellaG]

One more thing. They still gobble when eating. But you can tell something is irritating them. They now spit out food. I'm not worried yet, because they persist and although it takes them a bit longer, they will eat all the food I give them. Will the salt help them with the irritation?

[IsabellaG]

Here is the video. Ruby's shaking of today (less intense than it was yesterday) and Patches' poop makes an appearance at the end

[dnalex]

I'm not sure. It might be a scratch of some sort...