Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
beepbeepimajeep

Floating problem progressively getting worse

Recommended Posts

  • * Ammonia Level 0
  • * Nitrite Level 0
  • * Nitrate level <10
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Master Kit
  • * Water temperature? 74-78
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 40 Gallon Breeder
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? AC 70 & 50
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 60-75% every 5 days
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 2 days
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 oranda 3 - 3.5in, 1 ranchu 1.5in
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Gel food, peas, frozen bloodworm & brine shrimps
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? the tiny ranchu 2 weeks ago
  • * Any medications added to the tank? none
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) oranda with floaty problem since April
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Standard 4-5 rounds of salt & prazipro for every new fish in separate QT tank
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? none
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? none

I got the oranda in Feb and for two months she never had any floaty problem no matter how much she eats or what kind of food. The problem started developing around the time she had eggs. It started with only Omega One pellets as the offending food. She would gulp for air sparingly then floated butt up for a short one or two hour. Shortly after, Hikari sinking pellets did the same thing to her as well. The gulping frequency also seemed to increase but not very excessively, she went back and forth between poking thru the sand and gulping.

It was not severe so I thought I just have one of those floaty fishes that almost everyone else seems to have, and eliminating commercial foods will solve the problem, which it did....for a while.

For the last few weeks, it seems even gel food and frozen foods are also causing the problem. The gulping gets much more excessive, she is like doing tail stand with her mouth is glues to the surface. The whole process is so mechanical there is no breaks between for swimming around, searching for extra food, or anything; it is: eat - gulp - float. The floating duration is much longer as well, 4-7 hours; she seems very uncomfortable during.

The ingredients in my gel food are just a few simple baby food veggies, 2.6oz bag of low sodium tuna, and one boiled egg white, mixed with agar agar.

The only thing she's still ok to eat are fresh peas and spinach. I want to feed her more than that for the rest of her life, as well as the other two fishes. I've since derived those two fishes from Saki-Hikari and Hikari Lionhead which supposedly very good that they also love, just because the problem of one fish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that given the persistent and progressive worse nature of the problem, that she is either harboring an infection, or there is now an unfavorable balance of fermenting bacteria in her digest tract. Could you put up a video of her floatiness after one of these meals? I would like to see what's going on.

Also, if you can order Metro-Meds and either Jumpstart or Pro-Gold (get this!) from goldfishconnection.com, that would be fantastic. I'd like to try to reset things for her, while getting the others to grow. It's a project that will last for a couple of months at least, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will attempt to get a video, but it wont be of good quality due to the combination of my crappy phone and the dim lightning (very old strip from the 29g w/ 20watt T8 bulb.....still shopping around for new fixture).

I can order Metromed, if she absolutely need it, along with pro-gold that i didn't get before because of shipping which I don't think worth it for one item.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't really get a good video of her. Whenever I'm close enough to tape, her behavior would change. Being a strong swimmer she would appear ok by being able to swim down, or beg for food. It's only when the light is off or that I am pretty far away then her natural behavior, as in floating, could ben seen.

I understand the important of not medicating the fish until absolutely necessary, that's why I hold off posting here because I guessed MM would be the recommendation when she might not need it...yet. But right now I think her situation is quite bad. A couple of times, she even do the 2nd phrase of gulping and floating after being relieved from the first time. Yes, she does it the 2nd time without even being fed. I think that as long as the food is yet to be expelled from her body, she still feel some kind of irritation. With such a long duration of floating after being fed, it affected her resting as well. I would feed her at 10pm and still see her floats at 5 or 6 in the moring when she would have sleep at the bottom next to her oranda mate.

Other than that she doesn't show any other sign of illness. When it's not happening to her she's the most active fish and have the biggest appetite, I have to drop food away from her so others would have a share. Very responsive and engaging with the deco in the tank.

Edited by beepbeepimajeep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you order the Metro-Meds and Pro-Gold? I'm not at all opposed to you using what tools you need to correct this problem; I just wanted to make sure. :)

Will you go ahead and just post a video of her as she swims? Do this about 1-2 hours after she's been fed. I think a lot of us are used to seeing fish with floaty issues, and can see the signs even when she's not actually being floaty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may have a solution for you, as this is my proven method and I kindly share this with you. Orandas are proned to eat from the surface that's why some of their food are made floating instead of sinking. It could be this fish has been used to eating from the surface and over the long term, he can become floaty and develops sbp.

Assuming that you've already tackled all the bugs part, I would suggest you lower the water to about 5-6 inches and aided with only an air stone, then salt 0.2% and do w/cs 2x per day (once morn/night). Feed only frozen blood worm and nothing else. If he can tolerate the amount of food without showing his back above water then increase the fbw. Report back in about a few days time and we shall see. Forget about feeding medicated food it's unlikely to work. Try this first, you'll be surprised!

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may have a solution for you, as this is my proven method and I kindly share this with you. Orandas are proned to eat from the surface that's why some of their food are made floating instead of sinking. It could be this fish has been used to eating from the surface and over the long term, he can become floaty and develops sbp.

Assuming that you've already tackled all the bugs part, I would suggest you lower the water to about 5-6 inches and aided with only an air stone, then salt 0.2% and do w/cs 2x per day (once morn/night). Feed only frozen blood worm and nothing else. If he can tolerate the amount of food without showing his back above water then increase the fbw. Report back in about a few days time and we shall see. Forget about feeding medicated food it's unlikely to work. Try this first, you'll be surprised!

Cheers

Jeff, the Metro-Meds actually does work, and work remarkably well. I've actually done with myself, and have assisted a number of others.

Having said that, I am all for trying something that does not require having to medicate, and your method sounds very interesting. Let us know if you are able to do it, BBMJ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may have a solution for you, as this is my proven method and I kindly share this with you. Orandas are proned to eat from the surface that's why some of their food are made floating instead of sinking. It could be this fish has been used to eating from the surface and over the long term, he can become floaty and develops sbp.

Assuming that you've already tackled all the bugs part, I would suggest you lower the water to about 5-6 inches and aided with only an air stone, then salt 0.2% and do w/cs 2x per day (once morn/night). Feed only frozen blood worm and nothing else. If he can tolerate the amount of food without showing his back above water then increase the fbw. Report back in about a few days time and we shall see. Forget about feeding medicated food it's unlikely to work. Try this first, you'll be surprised!

Cheers

Jeff, the Metro-Meds actually does work, and work remarkably well. I've actually done with myself, and have assisted a number of others.

Having said that, I am all for trying something that does not require having to medicate, and your method sounds very interesting. Let us know if you are able to do it, BBMJ.

I agreed if it's bacteria/protozoan related. I've treat 2-3mths babies that flipped over with great success using this method...cost nothing as no medicine is the better medicine.lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely! While the Metro-Meds work, it should be something of a last resort, not the first attempt. There are things such as diet and habits that should be addressed first. Always.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely! While the Metro-Meds work, it should be something of a last resort, not the first attempt. There are things such as diet and habits that should be addressed first. Always.

For floating issues, apart from bugs (esp Flukes) I think the environment/water are the most important factors.

Edited by lionchu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have heard of people using the lower water level successfully, but some fish always need to be in a low level of water not to float.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm reading the advices and will order MM, and Pro Gold or Jump-start (which?), tomorrow or the next day.

As for the other method, I only have a 10gal so I don't know if 5-6in water is too tight of space. I can't do twice a day water change. In fact, I dont think I can even maintain WCs for two tanks at regular schedule, my work schedule is very demanding and I already have to give up several activities and hobbies lately. Even if I'm to start her on MM, I would really want to know if keeping her in the same tank is possible, like I would seperate them at feeding time and make sure they get their respective food and none of the other's.

Btw, I only feed her sinking foods since the first day. She might have been fed floating stuffs before that but like I said in my OP, she never float once in the first two month I had her.

Another slight problem, I might have to move them back to the 29gal for a week to relocate the 40B to my bedroom as family is not happy about its current location at end of the hallway...they're bumping their toes and stuffs get tangled into the stand and craps...

Edited by beepbeepimajeep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ordered Metromed and Progold and they're shipped.

Here is a video of her start the gulping about 15-20min after being fed gel food w/ the simple recipe I noted above. Sorry for the video quality from my old phone.

This is considered 'nomal' gulping after gel food or frozen foods. It's more frantic with commercial pellets. The other two fishes are fed exactly the same stuffs and never touch the surface. You can see her already start floaty butt-up when she tries to swim down, and this is just after 15-20min of food.

I will try to get a video of her floating if this isn't enough to diagnose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With these issues, it can get complicated. Fish can gulp at the surface, supposedly because of the oily film that is left after food was left on the surface. However, if this persist for hours, it's not that anymore, and may be one of the earliest signs of an internal bacterial infection.

Let's try to get this fixed ASAP :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Metromed and Progold arrived yesterday. I'm holding off treating her for at least a week since I have to seed the filter for the QT tank anyway, and I'm super busy lately.

I've been trying to minimize her floating by feeding the least offending food, frozen brine shrimps, then follow immediately with peas. That seems to help a bit until then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big pump!

I'm been holding off using the MM hoping I can find other solution since I don't have much confident in MM putting the issue away permanently (I've read about the same numbers of successful stories as there are unsuccessful ones), and that she was still showing signs of maybe just food related issue instead of internal infection (great buoyancy when not feeding, short/chunky poops, ravenous appetite, very active).

But since my last post, her condition is getting worse so I think I will have to to resort to MM after all. Peas no longer work and give her floaty big time. I followed the forum and got Soilent Green, didn't help either. Pro-Gold makes her floats worse than anything else I've ever tried.

I like to revive this thread instead of creating a new one since there are already some great discussion and opinions here. I would like to have more opinions on whether it's just food-related based on what's mentioned above, or that MM is probably the only solution here. My biggest worry is that even if MM cure her for the moment, it can potentially wreck her organs/kidney and the issue will come back later worse than ever.

Nothing change from the original settings, but here they are anyway:

  • * Ammonia Level 0
  • * Nitrite Level 0
  • * Nitrate level <10
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.6
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Master Kit
  • * Water temperature? 74-78
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 40 Gallon Breeder
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? AC 70 & 50
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 70-80% every 5-6 days
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 4 days ago
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 oranda 3 - 3.5in, 1 ranchu 1.5in
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Spinach and Repashy only for the last 2 weeks
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  • * Any medications added to the tank? none
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) oranda with floaty problem since April
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Standard 4-5 rounds of salt & prazipro for every new fish in separate QT tank
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? none
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? floaty as described

Edited by beepbeepimajeep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a short video of her today. Sorry for the blurry and glaring. I had to stand far away and zoomed in, if I come any closer, she will attempt to swim around normally as she's very strong and still capable. You can see her doing that near the very end of the video.

Edited by beepbeepimajeep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello I am sorry your Oranda still isn't well :(

Floaty issues are the worst :( I do have to say though Metro Meds are very Gentle on the internal Organs and actually that is why we use it to treat for Dropsy. Media Gold however can be a bit harsher on the kidneys but when used accordings everything should be fine.

ALso I am the MM queen right now since sadly all my fish have had to be on them but after that they are all doing great :)

Edited by MissColonel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried switching to an all frozen diet for a day and fasting? I don't see that you mentioned it anywhere (forgive me if you did) But I would try 1 day of fasting to clear the digestive tract and feed frozen bloodworms before starting the metromeds. I've had quite a few severe floaters and my pearlie Roosevelt can get a bit floaty from progold so I have quite a few tricks up my sleeve. As others have said MM are very gentle, I'd almost put them on the same level as prazi-pro because they're both very versatile and trustworthy products. Being stuck on the surface or having swim bladder problems continuously can cause major problems long term as I've seen first hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried switching to an all frozen diet for a day and fasting? I don't see that you mentioned it anywhere (forgive me if you did) But I would try 1 day of fasting to clear the digestive tract and feed frozen bloodworms before starting the metromeds. I've had quite a few severe floaters and my pearlie Roosevelt can get a bit floaty from progold so I have quite a few tricks up my sleeve. As others have said MM are very gentle, I'd almost put them on the same level as prazi-pro because they're both very versatile and trustworthy products. Being stuck on the surface or having swim bladder problems continuously can cause major problems long term as I've seen first hand.

Fantastic suggestions, except I would do 3 days of fasting, instead of just one :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've mentioned frozen foods do not work. Being reluctant to use MM, I went on try as many fasting method and food combination as I possible can. I did 1 day/week fasting follow with one day of veggie, I did 3-4 days fasting followed with one whole week of veggie. But the moment I reintroduce anything else, no matter how small the amount, or that I still feed veggie along side to slowly ease in, she immediately goes back to gulp and float.

Another video of her floating:

and here's how she normally is, after farting out the air she gulped in. Interestingly, her poops are all thick and chunky with no air mixed in ever, she farts the air out seperately. My non-floaty fishes have longer poops with air inside sometimes.

......until the next feeding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If diet changes are not working then I'd consider the MM's even more. Is there any chance she's stunted? Unfortunately stunted goldfish often encounter swim bladder problems later in life even after being removed from the bad situation. Id try the MMs and if those failed to help I'd consider getting her into a tank with less current that is more shallow to help her move around easily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BBMJ, why don't you give the MMs a try, followed by food that contains a good amount of probiotics, preferable soilent green with probiotics supplemented. Before that, however, I would like for you to do one thing for me, which is to feel her belly near the vent. What does it feel like?

I understand your reluctance, and I agree. However, one of the reasons that I think success is equally likely as failure, at least as indicated by people's posted responses, is because sometimes they are not actually correctly treating the problem. Floatiness can be because of swim bladder issues (not typically) or it can be from gas-producing bacteria after food. Or, it can be something else entirely.

Let me give you an example. Recently, one of my favorite orandas became really floaty, and so I automatically suspected that this had to do with food. I fasted her for three days, and it sort of got better, but not significantly so. Then, I noticed that actually, her floatiness sometimes coincided with food, and sometimes not. It turned out that she was majorly floaty not because of food, but because she was full of eggs and was not able to spawn them. In this case, no amount of MM will help her.

The other cause for failure can happen because people correctly treated with MMs, but did not do the appropriate follow up treatment, which requires helping the fish to re-populate the gut with good bacteria. This is where probiotics come in. There are certain types of bacteria in the gut that favor fermentation pathways and produce gas in the process. If enough of these are around, every time the fish eats carbohydrates/sugars, it will become floaty. So, after resetting the situation in the gut by having MMs kill off all the bacteria, you now need to push for good non-fermenting probiotic bacteria to be the major bugs in the gut.

So, my suggestion is this: 2 weeks of MMs, at 1% of body weight daily. Then, 2-4 weeks of soilent green with probiotics. Be patient. I think you may be surprised. I hope so. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I won't rule out the chance that she's stunted since she came from a giant chain store where the condition of their fishes is very questionable. But during the 6 months I have her, not only she had tripled in size but went though several color changes so I would say she's showing good growth progress.

I will attempt to feel her belly tomorrow and maybe weigh her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her belly around the area feel soft but bouncy. The two sides feel firmer while the very bottom, whitest part, feel soft. I've never do this before so I don't know my judgement is accurate, what might feel soft to me could be normal for someone else.

Also, there are 2-4 light red streaks in her tail if that means anything. They have alway been there, not going away or getting worse, water paramenters are good and other fishes don't have them.

She weighs 23-24 grams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...