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Freckles is now Bottom Sitting

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Other Required Info:

    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level 0ppm
  • * Nitrite Level 0ppm
  • * Nitrate level 5ppm
  • * Ph Level, Tank 7.5
  • * Ph Level, Tap 7.5
  • API Master Test Kit, a few months old.
  • 70F
  • 90 gallons, 7 years
  • Two Aquaclear 110
  • 80-90% waterchanges every 7-14 days, as allowed by work and school. My levels never get into bad areas (I consider any ammonia, nitrite, and more than 15ppm nitrate bad) so I do stretch out my changes. We are also on a sistern, so water gets a bit pricey.

  • Last water change was Sunday, 50%
  • 4 fish. 5" Ryukin male. 3" Ryukin Calico. 2" Pearlscale. 3" Wakin
  • No water additives or conditioners.
  • Fed once daily, switched to Hikari Wheat Germ on Sunday (June 3). About 2 feedings a week, I feed the garlic gel food I made. I fast one day a week (Sundays).
  • No new fish since... March I believe, maybe late February?
  • Currently no meds in the tank.
  • April 23rd started tank on garlic gel food I made. Salted tank to 0.3 on May 2 or 3. I believe all salt was removed by May 19th if I remember correctly. Did three rounds of PraziPro starting May 2. I fed Deworm Bits from goldfish connection twice daily for a week starting the second week of May.
  • Freckles seems to have an odd growth on a pectoral fin. I noticed this on May 2. It seemed to shrink some with salt, but it is still there.
  • Freckles, 3" Calico has adopted bottom sitting since treating for flukes on May 2.

Hi all. After treating with Prazi, the yawning has stopped, along with the occasional flashing I was seeing. However, Freckles spends about half her time on the bottom now. Whenever food is involved, she's wiggling around like nothing is wrong, but it takes a tap on the glass to get her up. Just seeing the bringer of food doesn't do anything for her. This behaviour has been going on for about 2-3 weeks.

Freckles also has a growth (not fungus, actually seems to have a rougher texture to it, more like a callus) on one of her pectoral fins. Doesn't seem to effect her swimming, no redness around it, it's actually stark white. I noticed this before the bottom sitting started, so it doesn't seem to be a result of her new home on the ground.

Mr. Ryukin has his breeding stars on, and has been following her around with his face burried in her butt whenever she's up and about. I'm wonding if he might be tiring her out? Mr. Ryukin has been spotted once bottom sitting beside her, however as soon as I came in the room, he was up. Looked more like resting as opposed to illness.

The other two are active, eating, and nosing about as ususal.

I will try to get pictures tonight of the lump on the fin.

I am thinking I should up the salt to 0.3 again and maybe dip her if things don't perk up in a week or so?

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I would right now, do the .1% salt.

Once we get some photos we can help farther :thumb:

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Ok, I managed to get some pics.

I also poked Freckles a bit. The lump a solid, firm mass that seems to be built with other masses. Hopefully the picture will show the texture. Slightly rough feeling in comparison with the rest of the fish. Belly is firm. Two red veins on the fin that has the lump. Otherwise normal healthy fish.

Also, I think Freckles might be male. Concave vent, not convex. However, this doesn't explain my confirmed male's obsession with Freckles' vent?




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When you treated with prazipro did you have the salt at .3% the whole time?

Is there any indication of smaller white bumps or anything on the other pectoral fin?

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Also, any chance we could get a video of Freckles' behavior and the whole tank setup? :)

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Those white bumps on the pectoral fin look like breeding stars to me. Are you sure Freckles a female?

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I am not certain if Freckles is female. However, my confirmed male Ryukin gets breeding stars on his gill plates and has the thicker pectoral fins. His breeding stars are itty bitty. This is only on one fin, with red veins, and no stars on the gill plates. I am not really concerned about the sex, but I am 99% certain this isn't breeding stars on Freckles.

I'm pretty sure I had the salt at 0.3 the whole time. Which I just read reduces the effectiveness of PraziPro. So, I will keep the salt at 0.1 and redose the PraziPro. I am also going to try to pick up some kind of QT tank, however, I want to redose the whole tank with Prazi because Mr. Ryukin was bottom sitting again yesterday beside Freckles. Again, makes me think its not breeding stars, but something in the tank.

The last picture shows the texture the best on the lump. I will try to get some kind of video before work.

Edit: I just took a video, however, my computer is not reading it off the card, so I can't upload it. They were all dancing and wiggling for food anyway, like I said, Freckles is still pretty active, just has the lumpy fin and bottom sits sometimes.

Edited by teh_Kibbster

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Sorry for the double post, but I am strongly considering going bare bottom on this tank now. I have about a 1/2" thick gravel bottom and given that that is where things tent to grow, I guess I will remove it.

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A video would be very helpful if you can manage. Even one from a camera phone will do just to see his general behavior.

I actually also believe that these are likely breeding stars on his fin, given the location, shape, and texture of the mass. Sometimes breeding stars can become overgrown like this. The only small thing that makes me not totally definitive in this diagnosis is the fact that it is not occurring on both sides. Would it be possible to get a picture of the other pectoral fin? (I am curious if there is any small indication of breeding stars on that side). Typically, this would occur bilaterally, however nothing is impossible.

Here is a picture of another fish with massive breeding stars on the pecs:


The only other possibility that jumps to mind is lymphocystis, which is viral in nature and causes large lumpy cauliflower looking mases on the body. Being viral in nature there is no medication that will cure the problem. Some fish show spontaneous regression, in others the issue is chronic. Stressors in the environment (e.g. poor water quality etc) are typically a trigger for this virus to crop up in fish that carry it, and the only way to manage it is to keep water quality pristine and stressors minimal so that the immune system can effectively do it's job.

However, I do not believe that lymphocystis is the most accurate diagnosis in this case because the mass is the more typical size/shape/texture for breeding stars and not lymphocystis.

Either way, I do believe that the mass on the pectoral fin is benign in nature and not the root cause of the behavior you are witnessing.

I think it would be a good idea to treat the tank with prazi again. This time do 4-6 rounds at .1% salt, as the .3% salt does make prazipro less effective. That paired with only having done 3 rounds may have left some of the more resistant flukes.

Please follow the 5 day schedule for prazi:

Day 1: add prazi and .1% salt

Day 4: Large (at least 50%) water change (add back in salt you took out)

Day 5: Large water change, add prazi (add back in salt you took out)

Repeat until you have added prazi 4-6x

Regarding the gravel, 1/2 inch thick is not bad as long as you are vacuuming it regularly and well. However, if you would like to go barebottom, you should only remove a small amount at a time in order to avoid a cycle bump (e.g. 1/4 of the gravel a week).

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