jetman73

 

Hi, did my second try of wen trimming today, Different oranda, smaller than the other one. Had everything ready as Helen and Lisa said. Did the clove oil, it looked like it was supposed to. Set the timer, at 10mins timer goes off, blankie kicked up a big fuss when picked him up, he swam around more, put back in, took out, he wriggled like mad. Wasnt sure what to do, he had his full ten minutes plus more.

 

Even on the table he wriggled, i had him timered when to put in med water and when to take out etccc

He continued to wiggle the whole time. Mostly I was looking to see what i could do, he has a very thin layer on his eye, I thought it was attached to the wen, it wasn't, it is dark like him, half way down  his eye is clearer. it is like a eyelid, but just stays there.

 

It took him so long to wake, I was really scared. Thought I had lost him.  I held him up for so long my fingers were wrinkly. 

But he was such a fighter i couldn't give up.

 

Once I was ready again

I did the one from last time, he went to sleep faster this time, was really good, i did the other eye that i hadnt been able to last time.

On the table the wen relaxes eye is really visible, but when in the water the weight of the wen makes it hang down more. 

I really struggle to make a difference with the bottom of the eye

I did a better job with him this time, he woke easy and was swimming around strongly very early.

 

Have you found this before, do they behave differently the very first time they are put to sleep?

 

 

yes, i have found this, and in the same fish. i have sedated 3 different fish, each took their own time responding to the sedation. Leon was sedated 8 times. he was consistent with his times, approximately 7 minutes to be fully sedated. the first few times, i pulled him out at 5 minutes, it wasn't enough. so he went in again for another 2-3 minutes and that was plenty. from there, i learned that he needed the full 10 minutes to be on the lighter side of fully sedated. he woke very quickly in the recovery tank.

 

on a few occasions, i had to wake Leon and then re-sedate him to stop blood flow from incisions that weren't clotting as expected. on the second round, he was asleep faster and woke in record time afterwards.

 

Chubber Chu needed approximately 15 minutes to be fully sedated, she needed longer to wake. i never felt that i would lose her tho, she was making small recovery signs and i knew that holding her over the air disc, that she would come to, eventually. and that she did.

 

another fish i had was a small fantail. she took the longest to be sedated. almost 16 minutes before i could manage her. i took her out at 8 minutes, then 12 and then at 16 minutes. she woke in good time, but i did need to hold her also.

 

none of my fish struggled or showed any signs of discomfort using the clove oil for sedation..

 

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now..to address jetman73

 

You're getting way ahead of yourself and I'm tired of derailing this thread.

To sum up my thoughts:

I have seen first hand and heard of many people that have lost fish using Clove Oil - me too. mainly from those who are misguided and inexperienced to use it.

I have never had that problem but did have delayed inducement and recovery - each fish is different. humans are considered individuals, why can this not apply to fish?

I have no clue if it causes permanent damage but it IS an OIL and smells like ham - rubbish - it smells like cloves. if people season ham with clove oil, then draw no comparison to it's intended use on things other than food.

Oil in water will coat gill filaments, especially when you shake it up and disperse it. - there is no long term effect and my finned patients are proof of that.

Every single dealer and breeder I have ever dealt with in the past would never use Clove Oil because it can be unreliable. Most of these dealers handle 100's of thousands of dollars worth of fish if not more. - good for them

I'll trust them and the few Aquatic Biologists I have had the pleasure of learning from in the past. - good for you.

 

 

 

Lol - its as I said. Anyway, nobody seems to be in a tizzy about it so I'm not going to either. Fish wakes up from procedure and recovers - no harm, no foul!

I hope to never have to resort to this anyway.

Oh and you can defer to the experience of others who still use clove oil and see no issue with it - if you must defer to experience. I've never used any of it and hope to never need to.

Unless they don't. I've seen it with clove oil and heard stories but never with MS-222 unless it is purposely overdosed - and there you have it . What scares me about clove oil is the OIL factor and that it is no doubt coating the delicate gill filaments.- and even if it does, it is very short term, otherwise i would have lost all the fish i made procedures on.

For the OP MS-222 would be ideal and has a solid track record behind it. - in my experiences, clove oil has a very solid track record too.

 

 

jetman73 - MS-222 is not available to the public in Australia... therefore, we use clove oil.

 

Just because you can't obtain MS-222 doesn't mean that is not a superior product. It was an alternative I offered to the OP based on my experience.

The truth is some of the advice you give on here would make the real experts cringe. Maybe if you opened your mind and were willing to understand better ways of doing things you could improve not only as a fishkeeper but as a mod who helps these people. For me,I'm done with this place because I can only hold my tongue so long. Peace out. 

You're getting way ahead of yourself and I'm tired of derailing this thread.

To sum up my thoughts:

I have seen first hand and heard of many people that have lost fish using Clove Oil

I have never had that problem but did have delayed inducement and recovery

I have no clue if it causes permanent damage but it IS an OIL and smells like ham

Oil in water will coat gill filaments, especially when you shake it up and disperse it. 

Every single dealer and breeder I have ever dealt with in the past would never use Clove Oil because it can be unreliable. Most of these dealers handle 100's of thousands of dollars worth of fish if not more. 

I'll trust them and the few Aquatic Biologists I have had the pleasure of learning from in the past.

Lol - its as I said. Anyway, nobody seems to be in a tizzy about it so I'm not going to either. Fish wakes up from procedure and recovers - no harm, no foul!

I hope to never have to resort to this anyway.

Oh and you can defer to the experience of others who still use clove oil and see no issue with it - if you must defer to experience. I've never used any of it and hope to never need to.

Unless they don't. I've seen it with clove oil and heard stories but never with MS-222 unless it is purposely overdosed. What scares me about clove oil is the OIL factor and that it is no doubt coating the delicate gill filaments. 

For the OP MS-222 would be ideal and has a solid track record behind it. 

I don't think the dollar amount discrepancy has anything to do with trying surgery as a last resort to save a fishes life. As I'd ONLY be doing surgery for that reason because I don't even know how to do surgery as I got my first two fish last October, I think its fairly valid.

In addition, I saw the product you mentioned on a website for about $40 plus shipping, so wouldn't be hard to get my hands on in those terms, just expensive. Also, I don't think clove oil fell out of favor, as it seems most people still use it. In addition, it doesn't seem like 10 minutes is too bad, it took me longer than that to come round after a major procedure. But then I'm now comparing the two - which may not be appropriate.

I'll defer to your experience. Oh wait!

MS-222 = $40

Clove Oil = $4

Pretty clear which one I can afford! I hope I never have to resort to needing to sedate my fish, but I sadly don't think I could cough up that much for the sedation.

If it comes down to a $35 discrepancy you shouldn't be doing the surgery in the first place and that is why I recommended MS-222. Scraping a fish or checking gills does not require sedation but putting a fish under for multiple minutes does. Clove oil fell out of favor years ago because of the time to induce sedation and the recovery time and that is reiterated in this thread with posters waiting 10 minutes for a fish to roll. That's not something I would be comfortable with, although it never took that long when I did use clove oil. It's also a product that will never be consistent among what posters here are able too obtain. 

I've only done the wen surgery once. Most likely will have to do in several months. I'll know then if the fish reacts differently to sedation.

Helen probably has experience with sedating the same fish more than once.

MS-222 is the way to go. They go under fast and come out fast and it is meant for sedation and more than likely what a vet would use. I've used clove oil in the past and had no problems but would always reach for MS-222 in the future. It is much safer for the fish and less stressful to not only the fish but also the keeper. I always hated when my room smelled liked ham for a few days if I spilled some. 

Probably not showers as it really ups humidity in a closed space. It'll be DIY bucket wet dry filters. I'll make a video on how I make em when I make some more next week. With 4x auto water change a day, I won't need something as powerful as a bakki shower in theory. But we'll see how it goes, Adjusting filtration and water changes as necessary. 

Welcome to the board and I just finished watching one of your videos. Great set-up you have going on there and I'm looking forward to your filtration video. I noticed some of your DIY 2 liter soda bottle in tank moving beds and am completely impressed, never seen that before but I'm more of a pond guy in nature. Ever thought of moving beds on that system? They would probably take up less room and you could get more bio, albeit not as efficient. 

If you can't use a shower I guess you can't go wrong with a wet/dry set-up.  I've seen some killer showers in the past but they were always outdoors and I built a few myself from 15" diameter pipe.

Looking forward to your update and learning a thing or two. 

In the future you could try using MS-222 for sedation. It is much safer and reliable and the fish recover faster and this is coming from someone who used to use clove oil. 

Filtration pictures please and description. Are you going with showers? 

That is a HUGE jump in nitrate each week! How often are you servicing your canister? Your sump? Are you sure your sump isn't an nitrate factory from mulm? Biofilm and algae are awesome. Detritus and decay built up is not.

The other thing I want to know is your KH and GH - especially if you have calcium precipitating our I suspect high GH and not enough KH. How much does your PH change overnight from the tap?

What antibiotics do you have on hand right now to handle the pop eye?

I'd agree about the precipitation theory. Maybe the OP can test his Ph just before he turns the lights on, and just before he turns them off. That should give a reasonable level of the Ph swings that are happening daily and possibly why they are losing healthy fish. Definitely need to test for Kh.

Excuse or delete my post if I'm not supposed to be giving advice. 

Great looking fish and it's nice that you supported a small breeder. Best of luck with them and I still can't believe you got them for that price.

I didn't read the entire thread but when looking for a second hand tank I always prefer something that was used as a fish tank in the past. Push your fingers throughout the silicon seals and make sure it has some spring to it.....somewhat spongy with some give is what you should be looking for. If it feels hard, stiff, or brittle I would pass regardless of the price. 

You should lube the o-rings but make sure you use an o-ring lube and not vaseline. Over time vaseline will deteriorate the o-rings and regular lube only costs a couple of bucks at one of the big box stores. Everytime I clean my filters I always put a THIN film of lube on all of the o-rings and/or seals.

I think long term you would be fine without the UV. 

Looks great, was that Flame hawkfish representative of the breed? I know absolutely zero about saltwater environments but that fish behaved like a guard dog. 

My next experiment is either a nano saltwater or 500 gallons of goldfish. If I go saltwater I'll be pulling your ear for advice.

Thanks jetman I will have to check them out

Check out the CFKS next month. It is one of the biggest shows in the US and goldfish dealers have always been a part of it. If you've never been, it is a must for a fish junkie and is less than 2 hours away. Also check the seminar schedule.....some years it is fantastic and others it has been meh. If Mat McCann gives one I would make it a point to attend even if it doesn't relate to goldfish. 

Sorry to hijack your thread.

Nice set-up and it's obvious you have already done your homework before jumping in.  Lots of luck and with only 2 fish they should thrive, just resist the temptation too add any more than that.

The place I was talking about earlier is called Bonsai Koi Ponds and it is located on Park Blvd. Might be an ideal place to sell some of your extra fish, especially since it's in your own backyard.

Good luck with the breeding program. 

Looking good. There used to be a guy over in Pinellas Park that specialized in outdoor goldfish ponds, sorry but the name escapes me. Do you have any idea if that place is still around? He used to bring fish to the Central Florida show regularly. I think he was located on Park Blvd.

How many did you end up getting? I've had mine for a month now and they have easily doubled in size(weight) and I'm already on my second 4oz. pack of FBW. 

Epsom salt will not contribute to your salinity. They are completely different.....don't let the name salt confuse you.

 

I could give you a bunch of references to aquaculture research, but I will simply tell you my experience.  I have two in-ground ponds and at any given time anywhere from four to eight container ponds depending on how many excess youngsters I have.  All of my ponds receive the same maintenance, 10% of the pond volume of fresh water dripped in daily, filter volume equal to at least 10% of the pond volume. All have phytofiltration, primarily plants growing in the top of filters. The ponds range from 8 inches to 30 inches deep.  My experience says that-- in my yard-- the shallower the pond, the healthier the fish.  My largest, deepest, and most lightly stocked pond is the one I think of as the "death pond".  I don't lose many fish, (the reason I have such a population problem) but most of those I lose are in the "big" pond.  I have never lost a fish in a pond 8" deep these are the "available" fish and I will never confess to the stocking level.

 

I currently have about 20 adult fancies (and a bunch of fry), all but one home-grown.  I have rehomed probably about 20 more adults.  The incidence of swim bladder disorder in my fancies is easy to compute -- zero%, since I have never had a floater.  My oldest fancies are in their fourth or fifth year and all move continuously when awake.  Fancies need swimming area much more than pond-type fish because their bodies become  heavier with every year. Swimming a lot helps keep them in shape and avoids the obesity that leads to swim bladder disorder.

 

Three or four years ago,  when I had a huge excess of baby fish and virtually all survived, I had to put all my long-bodied fish into a couple of stock tanks.  They had the same surface area, but one was a 50 gallon 1 foot deep and the other a 2 foot deep 100 gallon.  I put the littlest ones into the 50 gallon tank and the bigger ones into the 100 gallon.  At least 2/3 of the total number of fish were in the 50 gallon but the fish load was about the same.  A year later, the fish in the two tanks were about the same size.  At this point it was clear the fish load in the shallow tank was much greater than in the deeper tank since most of the fish were the same size.   I added a filter to the small tank.  At about 2 years after I set them up, just before I finally succeeded in giving them all away, I had some deaths -- all in the 100 gallon.  Fortunately, that was just when I finally succeeded in giving them all away.

 

If you have an in-ground pond, the deeper the pond, the more stable the temperature.  The earth serves as a thermal sink.  However, with a pond totally above ground, unless you have thick insulation around the sides, pond temperature should be a function of volume, not depth.

I have enjoyed your posts in this thread. I don't feel like you need to post sources etc as you have established credibility of your own. I think we often have differing view points based partly on our large difference in climate zones as well as my increased frustration with fish that need to be babied for health reasons. My switch to a Koi only pond is not far off!

 

This is an oldie but if I could give you ONE piece of advice with going to a koi only pond. Make sure it is gravity fed filter with some type of settling chamber that is easily flushed. Putting in a 4" BD or multiple drains now will save you a ton of work and possibly heartache in the end.  

I have two of the baby thai calico orandas from Cynthia and posted some updates in the non planted tank section. Please keep us updated as our fish might be from the same spawn.

Mine are growing like weeds but I'm also feeding them heavily in warmer water. Good luck with them, I'm very happy with my two.

Some people have asked if it was maybe a reptile tank and the person who old it to me said it was an aquarium and used as such to get rid of it quicker an if it wasnt meant to hold water

 

 

It had one piece of glass across the middle from the back to the front and two ledges across the sides for the lids to sit on. That was it though.

 

I wish it had started as a small leak so I could have got fish out and drained it without the flood and heart attack!

Any tank that has had time too dry out after keeping fish would be a risk regardless of what they held. I'm surprised your tanks don't have any supports integrated within the top ring or the bottom.    

Nope there wasn't.

 

 

IF I end up putting another tank in my room...which wouldn't be for another couple months at least now...I will be buying a new one and using a proper stand. Lesson definitely learned there.

I've never seen a tank here in the States that didn't have some kind of brace on the top and bottom. At the very least, it would only start leaking from the seams. You were very lucky with the outcome on this one.