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Posts posted by Steve1107

  1. Has Mochi made the big move yet? Everything went OK, true? Bet M. is thrilled to be in new, larger quarters.

    From what I've read pH and temperature are key as above but fwiw also the closer the hardness (GH, KH) of the water in the two tanks, the easier for the fish. Supposedly if the difference is too great it can be tough on the fish. Going suddenly from really soft to really hard water is worse than going from harder to softer (?) iirc. Perhaps another poster can add to this.

    Of course if the water in Mochi's tanks is from the same source and has been treated / buffered similarly most likely this isn't a concern, fortunately.

    Keep us posted. Pics too!

  2. Unfortunately you posted what's seemingly an uninformed, or incompletely informed, and -- more outrageous still -- patronizing response after a simple answer to the OP's question.

    I have been through Immunology, undergraduate and graduate (have you?), not to say I'm a wiser man for it but I can follow most of the basics. Invertebrate Zoology, too, and the scars are there. Sadly I made the mistake of taking the bait and trying to make sense of the criticism, which I ought not to have done and for which the OP and Koko's are owed a huge apology

    So -- I'm sorry, it is my fault, and I apologize. It truly was stupid of me and, again, I apologize.

    Never again.

    That said, if there is such a thing as professionalism among hobbyist forum moderators, bullying, patronizing, and being condescending to forum members ain't it.

  3. Steve,

    I will tell that both endotherms (warm-blooded) and ectotherms (cold-blooded) can mount an innate (non-specific) immune response to pathogens that include raising their body temps by a few degrees. In both, this step is to limit the replication of the pathogen replication such as those of viruses and bacteria.

    Innate nonspecific immune response...

    Don't most -- nearly all, in fact -- bacteria and viruses reproduce/replicate faster at higher temperatures? And the host benefits from higher temperatures when the increase in the effectiveness of host immunity, especially but not limited to the (specific) antigen-antibody response, exceeds the increase in the rate of the pathogen's reproduction/replication?

    Or by nonspecific immune response, you meant...cellular immunity? That's not the same as an increase in body temperature

    And how exactly is it that ectotherms raise their body temperatures?

    the.koi.maiden surely is going end up with the gory details in answer to her question...

  4. This is separate from the febrile response I am talking about.

    In this case, one thing we can control to help the other fish. The other is part of the fish's immune response.

    As for the papers you referenced, both are talking about the temperature threshold in which specific immunity is impaired,

    Could you give details on the febrile response you're writing about?

    And you're correct, the papers have to do with the influence of temperature on immune response

  5. Yes, in general, the higher the temp in fish, the higher the metabolism, which is good for breaking down food/meds, and cellular functions. :)


    Now, as for the fever response you are talking about, Steve, even fish can do that. It's an innate immune function that is available to fish, as well as mammals. :)


    I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism. :)

    Fever response in fish? Innate immune function?

    "I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism."

    Unfortunately this statement is the most confusing thing -- it contains exactly the distinction I posted above

    You're kind to list references, however, thank you

    They do all refer to the dependence of fishes' body temperature on their environment

    btw notwithstanding any general effects of temperature on BMR, apparently higher temperatures exert an effect on certain specific steps in the immune response, in particular humoral immunity: "The possibility of a general physiological effect of temperature on the immune response as a whole is unlikely" (Rijkers, op. cit.)

  6. -----------

    Now, as for the fever response you are talking about, Steve, even fish can do that. It's an innate immune function that is available to fish, as well as mammals. :)


    I think you are confused between an induced fever response, as opposed to higher temps raising metabolism. :)

    Say what?

    I can be wrong, true; but am interested to see references about endogenous pyrogenesis in ectotherms

    (as opposed to behavioral thermoregulation)

  7. Hi! Following thread, wishing for -- and expecting -- the best. It's good that Mr. W. is in really good hands!

    A: In general, higher environmental temperature (within reason) = better GF immune system function. True for mammals, too; probably why people often get a fever when they're sick. Fish lack this ability of course :(

    Don't take my word for it, though

    The immune system of cyprinid fish. Kinetics and temperature dependence of antibody-producing cells in carp (Cyprinus carpio). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1458243/pdf/immunology00246-0099.pdf Differential effects of temperature on specific and nonspecific immune defences in fish. (review article)


  8. Five Commandments of Goldfish

    1. Establish nitrogen cycle, then keep water clean.

    2. Have enough water for each fish.

    3. Feed correctly.

    4. Always QT new fish. Always.

    5. See Commandment 4.

    Of course, easy to customize and add details. A fun presentation for you and for the audience!

    Break a leg! (as they say) heh heh

  9. I'm just unsure as to whether I should allow it to go on for a while and see if he calms down? Or put him bag in the tub to

    spare the other fish?

    put him bag in the tub to

    spare the other fish


    imo if one fish is getting the worse of it sufficiently that we, as humans, can tell from that fish's body language s/he is beginning to suffer, separate immediately!

    "Above all else, cause no harm"

    -- some Greek guy, for when others' well-being rests in your hands

  10. It's not a pond but I'll give him a good home.

    >>With the added bonus it's free of marauding snakes, birds, etc. (No [r]Egrets! lol]) That has to help a GF have a peaceful life.

    Now that pics are up...it's astonishing how beautiful he is imo. The RG pics online must not even come near doing their fishes justice in person. We love our lfs teles &c. and they are God's little miracles but nowhere close to how good your new fish looks. Ya gets what ya pays fer, you know? Or at least, one seldom gets MORE.

    Great choice Cheryl! Whatever you decide to call him, "Slate" would be a fit bec. his colors are the same & shaded just the way slate sometimes is.

  11. Hi Everyone, I was looking at the male Blue Oranda I received him yesterday and unfortunately my internet/phone wasn't working for over 36 hrs or I would have posted this yesterday.

    I'm having a problem with photo bucket. I've been trying and they aren't posting.

    It's a plot! Slate (aka Shadow??) is in the Federal goldfish protection program & doesn't want his pic to get out haha

    Congratulations on your new Oranda! It's super he's healthy, happy, & acting as if he's in his native environment. Enjoy!

  12. Another cool creative name! Do your kids do outside consulting?

    I really don't know what's going on, hopefully it's NOT bacterial. If parasites would be readily treatable I hope it turns out to be that, or something else you & fish can defeat easily. When the diagnosis remains unknown it's wisest to consider all possibilities, you know?

    One thing that they say is essential, and most likely to lead to success, is a fantastic "I'm going to win this!" outlook like yours. Hold that thought!

  13. Hi, so sorry to read about Google's and Butter's troubles (your fish have such appealing, cute names!). I'm worried that the little brown specks that you've described and photographed so clearly are very real and represent petechial hemorrhages; that is, pinprick-sized spots of bleeding or bruising just below the surface. It usually takes either damage/injury to the lining of small blood vessels or, more likely, disruption of blood clotting ability. A common cause, and the most likely source given other symptoms you've reported, is a widespread infection, like septicemia (bacteria throughout the bloodstream). A yellowish change in color is worrying either for internal bleeding with breakdown of the red blood cells and release of their pigments the sites of bleeding; or liver involvement with loss of the liver's normal ability to process used red blood cell pigments.

    Unfortunately I'm not familiar with a "usual suspect" among the Goldfish diseases we frequently discuss that causes this. Websearching suggests that the petechiae and other symptoms of poor sweet Google & pals correspond to infection by one of the so-called Gram-negative bacteria. This is important info because it helps with choosing an antibiotic.

    I can also report that we've had two poor Goldfish with some of these findings who grew sicker and sicker then died while being treated

    in the customarily recommended way for dropsy, including antibiotic treatment (Metro-Med) as if for GRAM-POSITIVE bacteria. This is not the treatment of first choice for Gram-negative bacteria.

    So: I'm not a moderator nor in a position to recommend treatment. My concern is for your fish, whom you love, and their health and recovery. This post is for sharing observations that may not come from other sources in hopes it may help everyone help your fish. I challenge Mods and everyone to keep the focus on Google, Butter, and their comrades' well-being rather than my credentials, qualifications, and/or intentions. After all, we're all here for each other and for the fish, you know?

    Best wishes, as this may well be a serious illness,


  14. Two filters are worth considering, such as a "hang-on-back" filter and a canister filter. As you know, Goldfish require robust filtration although Fancies don't do well with rapid currents. Two filters would give you that much more filter media and biobacteria, as well as backup biofilter population if/when you need to clean or change media in one.

    Among the many canisters available, we've only had experience with Eheim Classic and have been very happy with its quietness, reliability, ease of use (following initial learning), and the way it keeps water chemistry stable seemingly no matter what. FWIW personally I've been very happy with AquaClear HOB filters as quiet & effective, & we've had the same experience with several different AQ sizes (substituting Eheim Substrat for the little AQ pebbles they give you, though).

    Best wishes with that great aquarium bargain and with finding filtration that works for you. Great question btw.

    Keep us updated!

  15. 1. Salt alone, done properly, will work every time.

    2. When you add heat to this, there is no way the ich can escape.

    Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I'm very interested in reading further...are there any scientific articles you could recommend about this?

  16. Hey everyone,

    One of the Mods recently remarked on Ich, advising against meds. Since you can read on the Web about changes in Ich pathophysiology lately, and since it's good to have a basic, working understanding of problems we see commonly, if you would, please comment if you've had any recent experiences with Ich -- especially where you and your fish emerged as victors! Although it's good be aware of what didn't work, too.

    Anyone have thoughts on so-called salt- and/or heat-tolerant Ich?

    [if this thread should be in a different forum, please accept my apologies and move as appropriate.]



  17. Hi,

    idk what the Mods will say...but just in case they're not able to respond in time for your lfs run, Metronidazole is a versatile anti-infective that fights several parasites and several bacterial species as well. IMHO it's well worth having on hand and useful enough that it can be justified as a "not sure exactly what to buy" purchase. Plus! you can add it to the tank water or mix it in food (esp. home-prepared or gel food).

    Best wishes, and pulling very hard for you and your fishy charges,


    PS: Pls forgive me for not knowing all the details of the current illness, but you mentioned Ich, true? Do you have anti-Ich meds on hand? Again idk what Mods will say, or what's on offer in ON, but ordinary antibiotics won't kill Ich. Malachite Green + Formalin will do it (although again idk how Mods would treat). If you can't find both MG and Formalin, Formalin alone is better than nothing, e.g. Kordon Formal-3 (iirc it's called "Formal-3." Formal something, in any case).

  18. This is what happens when we fill the already half full bowls.. they act as though we don't feed them

    You know cats, they're always deeply concerned they might miss out on something, so they simply GOTTA check!

    Thanks for the cool photoblog & thanks for the update.

  19. Good names all. "Kirby" is kind of cute, like Kirby the versatile little Nintendo character. In some of his images, Nintendo Kirby could sort of remind one of your little Lionchu (well, maybe that's stretching things a little, but still...).

    Honestly, though, this may not be one of the names you mentioned, but does s/he strike you at all as a "Widget"? Somehow, s/he also looks like s/he could be a "Widget"

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