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ichthius

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Posts posted by ichthius


  1. When I use daphnia for fry, I take two approaches. When they are the smallest, I grow the fry in green water and put large adults u. With them so their babies are eaten by the fry. As they grow, I put smaller days Daphnia in with them.

    You can make sieves of various sizes and collect the different stages of growth.

    You should consider aerating and also make a culture out in the sun that you can use to feed your cultures. Human urine in small amounts is one of the best fertilizers for this.

    Here's the idea, you can make sieves fairly easily by hit glueing meshes to short lengths of pipe or a container:

    http://...................blogspot.com/2013/07/stacked-sieve-for-sorting-daphnia.html

    http://...................blogspot.com/2012/01/12-brine-shrimp-sieve.html

    Last year in my greenhouse system, I raised fry brineshrimp free. I feed the adults, the water turned green, they eggs were incubated in green water hatched, inoculated with large adult daphnia and were not fed till about one inch in size.


  2. Pithing would be after the secondary method after clove oil, ice, or ms222. Freezing solid or pithing is to be sure there is no recovery.

    I was suggesting you use it in place of freezing solid if you wanted to inspect the plumbing.

    Fish do not like anesthetics and the avoidance is clear as is the cortisol spike when they are sedated. This is why I like the ice to knock them out as they don't have time to panic as they go under as it is nearly instant, their nerves don't transmit signals, anyone can do it and as you go through to freezing solid there is no awareness or pain.

    In the avoidance paper they fled all the common sedatives. I suspect this paper was to prove a new chemical is best but it was only showing they weren't as adverse to it.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073773

    I think more work would need to be done on their ability to block pain. Most of the time these are used for fin clipping or other surgical procedures so the pain aspect is important as well.


  3. i am curious, David. what do you prefer to use for sedating goldfish prior to surgery?

    Ms222. There is a new exotic animal vet show call dr k's exotic animal hospital or something like that and she did the fastest un sedated wenopsy, wenectomy? On a large Oranda. Snip snip and she was done. No anesthetic and the fish didn't even flinch.

    If you're ok doing a necropsy pithing might be something to study up on that way they are certainly brain dead even if the heart is beating.

    Goldfish hobbyists, one of the few who do their own necropsies.


  4. The interesting thing about the ice is, virtually everywhere you look it's discredited but there is never a source to any details showing it actually is bad.

    Yet a large number of the fish we eat, both warm and cold, wild and cultured end their life in an ice bath, followed by a secondary method, yet it's humane when they are to be consumed. With food you actually want to avoid cortisol and stress and it makes for tougher beef, less firm fish etc. and since this is a sign of stress we want the same thing for our pets.


  5.  

    and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.

     

     

    what stress do anaesthetics cause to goldfish? particularly clove oil? i will be interested to know the detail since i have sedated and euthed using only clove oil and not noticed anything but peacefulness during it's use in both scenarios..

     

    I think clove oil is humane and effective but nothing in nature is free.  Any animal when being sedated has a spike in the stress hormone cortisol before the anesthesia take effect.  These hormones are very primitive and work across most animal and most certainly across fish.  Here is a slide showing the spike in cortisol as sedation take effect.  Isoeugenol is a synthetic form of eugenol or clove oil.  I'm sure cortisol is released with an ice bath as well but the incapacitation of a fish (from warm temperatures to cold temperatures) is nearly instant.

     

    This was done in atlantic salmon.

    10695_2009_9346_Fig3_HTML.gif

    From: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10695-009-9346-2/fulltext.html

     

     

     

     

    I think this is what DP is referring to regarding freezing alone as a means of euthanizing Goldfish:

    https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf

    Page 71, right hand column:

    "This method of euthanasia is not appropriate for temperate, cool or cold-water-tolerant finifish, such as carp, koi, goldfish or other species that can survive at 4 degrees celcius and below".

    Which is why your freeze solid in a freezer to -20 C/ 0 F or add chlorine.

    The ice bath is just the incapacitation portion which is nearly instant.

    Strong doses of clive oil work but I think the ice bath knocks them out faster and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.

     

    I don't understand. If the source you originally tilted says your method is not acceptable, why does it all off a sudden become acceptable to do the unacceptable if you throw it in the freezer afterward? 

     

     

    The ice bath is the anesthesia not the euthanasia.  The freezing solid to 0F / -20 C or adding chlorine after incapacitation is the euthanasia.

     

    Please remember these protocols are conservative and slow to change.  Until this 2013 update clove oil was not approved nor was ice bath for any fish.  Groups who wanted to use clove oil did work to get it included and we did work to get ice included.  There are so many myths about ice baths forming ice crystals in the flesh but if a high school kid were to simply think about the physics of this it would be impossible.  Tissue is salty, freezes lower than water and even ice at 32F or 0 C in a bath of water can not freeze water.  The freezing of the tissue happens long after the fish could have any chance of feeling pain as the nerves do not conduct information at 0 C.

     

    They specifically say an ice bath is not approved for cold water fish euthanasia because it does not get cold enough.  Ice is however ok for anesthesia (ever put ice on a wound?) so the animal is incapacitated and incapable of feeling pain before the euthanizing temperatures are reached.

     

    In our Western philosophy, if it's not done with a chemical it must not be good type of philosophy.  There is rarely money or effort put into proving a cheap or free alternative yet there is big business in proving a chemical is the way to do something.  We'll never lose this internet myth but hopefully some here will feel comfortable using this safe, easy and widely available method of ending their dearly beloved pet's life without hacking it's head off.  

     

    Sorry if I didn't get this across as throughly as possible, I'm typing while eating and rushing off ship fish to researchers across the country.

     

     

     

     


  6. I think this is what DP is referring to regarding freezing alone as a means of euthanizing Goldfish:

    https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf

    Page 71, right hand column:

    "This method of euthanasia is not appropriate for temperate, cool or cold-water-tolerant finifish, such as carp, koi, goldfish or other species that can survive at 4 degrees celcius and below".

    Which is why your freeze solid in a freezer to -20 C/ 0 F or add chlorine.

    The ice bath is just the incapacitation portion which is nearly instant.

    Strong doses of clive oil work but I think the ice bath knocks them out faster and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.


  7. Zebrafish and goldfish are both cyprinids. Goldfish have a lower temperature tolerance than zebrafish but they also have a lower limit.

    Put a goldfish in an ice bath and it will will go to sleep and stop breathing rapidly. Continue to freeze it solid and it will die. Or add chlorine and it will die. The point is it's so numb that it does not feel pain, the nerves are to cold to function.

    The ten minutes is to ensure they are completely out and there is no chance of them being aware when chlorine is added. Remember this is a highly reviewed and technical protocol for euthanizing lab animals which is a necessary and touch subject.

    Exposing fish to Clove oil exposes the fish to stress too.

    It also has to be humane on the person being compassionate enough to end its life.

    I think the container of water, say goodbye, add ice and put in the freezer is the best for all involved.


  8. No, I have no problems culling fish, everyone who buys fancy fish has to face the fact this is how these fish are produced.

    The reason I asked is because the two operations are so counter to each other. Kind of like running a dog shelter and a puppy mill at the same time.

    Did you get window and door or kitchen and bathroom GE silicone 1?


  9. Glenn - how do you balance a goldfish rescue with a breeding operation? One you save others unwanted fish the other you produce many more unwanted fish.

    In a breeding operation, conservatively you discard 10 to 100 fish for everyone you keep. Most euthanize their culls, what will you do with yours?


  10. Any 100% silicon is fine, you can buy the ones from home reno stores and they will work great, just make sure not to buy the kind for bathrooms because it has a mildew protector in it which is bad for the fish

    There are 100% silicones with mildewcide that will kill fish.

    look for GE silicone 1 for windows and doors, and make sure it doesn't mention mildew.

    It will say not safe for aquarium use, it's a liability thing so use at your own risk.

    I wouldn't use it for large structural applications without doing a lot of research but should be fine for caulking.

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